Advice for tracing some information

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L

LIZZIE

Airman
22
2
Jul 5, 2020
Hello, my name is Liz and I'm not very good at using forums, so forgive me if I do it all wrong! I'm looking for some help in locating the following film:
15.03.44 Uffz. Müller Stab I./JG 301 Lancaster  N. Stuttgart: 5.400 m. 23.23 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.2.
I believe that this is the fighter that shot down my uncle's plane over North Stuttgart. Can anyone advise me as to where I could get a copy to view the footage?
Thank you.
 
Hi LIz what you want are the gun cams . Most did not survive, the were mentioned as proof with the claim.
 
Snautzer01 said:
Hi LIz what you want are the gun cams . Most did not survive, the were mentioned as proof with the claim.
Click to expand...
Hello Snautzer01, thank you for the information. Where would these gun cams be held if they survived? Regards, Liz
 
Did you see this? (Not gun cam ) https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?advanced[0][element_id]=82&advanced[0][type]=is+exactly&advanced[0][terms]=1944-03-15

SChattertonJ159568v10701.1.jpg
 
Snautzer01 said:
Did you see this? (Not gun cam ) https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?advanced[0][element_id]=82&advanced[0][type]=is+exactly&advanced[0][terms]=1944-03-15

View attachment 587177
Click to expand...
Thank you Snautzer01, yes I have this already. I've been doing extensive research over several years into two aircraft that collided 15.03.44, namely ND576 AND ME573. I've even been to Germany to research the archives there. My uncle was in the ND576 aircraft, and when the planes collided, four men swapped places, basically, two men from each crew ended up with the opposite crew, so my uncle and his friend ended up with the ME573 crew, and two from that crew ended up with my uncle's plane. Given all the timings, it looks as if the film in question could well be the one which shoots down the ME573 before it is hit by my uncle's plane 2 minutes later. The ND576 was at a higher altitude and after being shot down simply went into a steep dive, plunging downwards quickly like a stone falling, and then hitting the ME573 which was going down at a much slower rate and sadly ended up in the path of my uncle's plane. On impact, both planes broke apart and the four men swapped places before ME573 exploded. Both aircraft came down landing 2-3 kilometers apart. I have the eye witness reports, and the pilot of my uncle's plane was actually blown out of the plane at the collision point and survived. I was really fortunate to be able to correspond with him for many years. I just now have a few pieces of the jigsaw to put together. Namely, I have very few photographs of the crew of ME573, and it would have been nice to have had photos of all the men involved. I have eleven out of the fifteen. However, when I saw that there may have been a film to the shooting down of ME573, I was interested to see how damaged it originally had been before finally being hit by my uncle's plane, assuming of course this film shows this. I really appreciate your advice. Every little bit of information is important to verify the facts. Once again. Many, many thanks. Liz
 
LIZZIE said:
Thank you Snautzer01, yes I have this already. I've been doing extensive research over several years into two aircraft that collided 15.03.44, namely ND576 AND ME573. I've even been to Germany to research the archives there. My uncle was in the ND576 aircraft, and when the planes collided, four men swapped places, basically, two men from each crew ended up with the opposite crew, so my uncle and his friend ended up with the ME573 crew, and two from that crew ended up with my uncle's plane. Given all the timings, it looks as if the film in question could well be the one which shoots down the ME573 before it is hit by my uncle's plane 2 minutes later. The ND576 was at a higher altitude and after being shot down simply went into a steep dive, plunging downwards quickly like a stone falling, and then hitting the ME573 which was going down at a much slower rate and sadly ended up in the path of my uncle's plane. On impact, both planes broke apart and the four men swapped places before ME573 exploded. Both aircraft came down landing 2-3 kilometers apart. I have the eye witness reports, and the pilot of my uncle's plane was actually blown out of the plane at the collision point and survived. I was really fortunate to be able to correspond with him for many years. I just now have a few pieces of the jigsaw to put together. Namely, I have very few photographs of the crew of ME573, and it would have been nice to have had photos of all the men involved. I have eleven out of the fifteen. However, when I saw that there may have been a film to the shooting down of ME573, I was interested to see how damaged it originally had been before finally being hit by my uncle's plane, assuming of course this film shows this. I really appreciate your advice. Every little bit of information is important to verify the facts. Once again. Many, many thanks. Liz
Click to expand...
Snautzer01 said:
I think the changes on finding this are very very remote. On you tube there are some to be found.

For the interested see:
Accident Avro Lancaster Mk I ME573, 15 Mar 1944 notice cause of crash was heavy flak units .
http://www.aircrewremembered.com/AlliedLossesIncidents/?q=ME573

Crew ND576 Sagar, Joseph | The Jews of the RAF

From Kagero JG 301 Wilde Sau. No mention of Muller

this

View attachment 587241
Click to expand...
Snautzer01 said:
I think the changes on finding this are very very remote. On you tube there are some to be found.

For the interested see:
Accident Avro Lancaster Mk I ME573, 15 Mar 1944 notice cause of crash was heavy flak units .
http://www.aircrewremembered.com/AlliedLossesIncidents/?q=ME573

Crew ND576 Sagar, Joseph | The Jews of the RAF

From Kagero JG 301 Wilde Sau. No mention of Muller

this

View attachment 587241
Click to expand...
Hi Snautzer01,
Yes, there is the difficulty in determining whether both aircraft were shot down by flak or by the Luftwaffe fighter planes. at the time of the incidents, there was heavy involvement of German counter defences from both, so I'm keeping an open mind. The pilot who survived isn't sure what hit them, except that tail-end Charlie as he was nicknamed, reported fighters fast approaching rear side just before they were hit. Monica was useless. Soon after, Terry (the pilot) reported that they were hit from underneath which severed all the controls and sent them immediately into a steep downward dive. At the time, they'd dropped their bombs and were climbing away from the area. He seemed to think they were around,10,000 ft and climbing. Flak was also heavy, so it is difficult to determine what actually did bring them down. In some respects, the Luftwaffe timings fit better with the Water Tower observer reports, and the debriefing records of the Lancs that got back. I have a list of the Luftwaffe victory claims... do you have a list of the flak reported claims? I cannot seem to find a definitive one for those. Can you also tell me, what height can flak go? Would it be possible to bring an aircraft down at a height of 10,000 feet or more? Liz
 
Flak would not have a problem for 10.000ft. Round the big cities rader guided batteries were formed . I will ask Theo Boiten, renowed author on german night fighter his view later today on what happened.
 
Snautzer01 said:
Flak would not have a problem for 10.000ft. Round the big cities rader guided batteries were formed . I will ask Theo Boiten, renowed author on german night fighter his view later today on what happened.
Click to expand...
Thank you. Much appreciated. Liz
 
Theo, and other renowned authors and researchers hang out at this site. Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum - Powered by vBulletin

If these people can't help, then I don't know who can.

EDIT: According to "Jagdgeschwader 301/302 - Wilde Sau" by Reschke, 2 Lancasters were shot down by Feldwebel Gerhard Koch of 1 Staffel JG301 at 2325 and 2335 hours on the night of March 14-15, 1944. The Laubenheimer claim is also noted, this being on the night of March 16 at 2325 hours. Also no mention of Muller in either engagement.

In my opinion, I would suggest that, even were a film to shown up, there would be very little to see given the time. Most likely just black background with white flashes from hits perhaps followed by fire. It would be unlikely that anything of substance would be seen.
 
Last edited:
Crimea_River said:
Theo, and other renowned authors and researchers hang out at this site. Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum - Powered by vBulletin

If these people can't help, then I don't know who can.

EDIT: According to "Jagdgeschwader 301/302 - Wilde Sau" by Reschke, 2 Lancasters were shot down by Feldwebel Gerhard Koch of 1 Staffel JG301 at 2325 and 2335 hours on the night of March 14-15, 1944. The Laubenheimer claim is also noted, this being on the night of March 16 at 2325 hours. Also no mention of Muller in either engagement.

In my opinion, I would suggest that, even were a film to shown up, there would be very little to see given the time. Most likely just black background with white flashes from hits perhaps followed by fire. It would be unlikely that anything of substance would be seen.
Click to expand...

Thank you for that information. That's great. I've had a look at a few of the films and I agree with you, that there is unlikely to be anything of substance to be seen that would add to what I already have.
In the LUFTWAFFE NIGHT FIGHTER VICTORY CLAIMS, by John Foreman, Johannes Matthews, and Simon Parry, detailing the individual combat victory claims of the Luftwaffe night fighter pilots, 1939-1945. The table on Page 155 details those aircraft brought down by the German pilots on March 15th 1944. The third and fourth entries look to be the most promising given the timings of witness reports and the crash sites where they eventually ended up, that is of course if they were shot down by the Luftwaffe. Maybe the best I can hope for is to agree that both Lancasters were shot down either by Luftwaffe or flak before they collided. The collision has been proven so there is no issue with that fact. Thanks again for your help. kind regards, Liz

1594056332737.png
 
Just a side-note: it was not very common for nightfighters to record footage as their gun-cams didn't have night (low light) optics.
So if the engagement occurred between the time of nautical twilight and nautical dawn, chances are, there wouldn't have been any footage captured.
 
GrauGeist said:
Just a side-note: it was not very common for nightfighters to record footage as their gun-cams didn't have night (low light) optics.
So if the engagement occurred between the time of nautical twilight and nautical dawn, chances are, there wouldn't have been any footage captured.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I missed this message. This was the link that I found:

15.03.44 Uffz. Müller Stab I./JG 301 Lancaster £ N. Stuttgart: 5.400 m. 23.23 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.2

Regards, Liz
 
Night: 15-16. March 1944
R.A.F. Bomber Command: STUTTGART
JaFüe I. u. II. Jagdkorps:
15.03.44 Hptm. Eckart-Wilhelm von Bonin Stab II./NJG 1 4-mot. Flzg.  EN: 5.400 m. [St. Loup-Luxeuil] 22.10 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.43
15.03.44 Oblt. Heinz Rökker 2./NJG 2 4-mot. Flzg.  50 km. S.W. Strasbourg: 6.200 m. 22.26 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.6
15.03.44 Hptm. Reschke Stab I./NJG 1 4-mot. Flzg.  S.W. Strasbourg: no height 22.32 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.67
15.03.44 Maj. Rolf Leuchs Stab II./NJG 6 4-mot. Flzg.  25 km. S.W. St. Die: 5.500 m. 22.35 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.2
15.03.44 Uffz. Deh 6./NJG 1 4-mot. Flzg.N.E. FF Christa: 6.500 m. 22.35 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.39
15.03.44 Hptm. Eckart-Wilhelm von Bonin Stab II./NJG 1 4-mot. Flzg.  EO: 5.800 m. [Le Thillot/Voges] 22.41 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.44
15.03.44 Ofw. Kellermann L.Beo.St. 7 Lancaster 10 km. W. Überlinger See: no height 22.58 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.2
15.03.44 Fw. Rauer 3./NJG 1 4-mot. Flzg.  J Gradnetz BR-CR: 6.200 m. 22.58 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.84
15.03.44 Hptm. Gerhard Raht 4./NJG 3 4-mot. Flzg.  S.W. Stuttgart: 5.700 m. 23.12 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr. -
15.03.44 Oblt. Fritz Lau 4./NJG 1 4-mot. Flzg.südl. Stuttgart: 6.300 m. 23.14 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.61
15.03.44 Oblt. Koeberich 6./NJG 2 4-mot. Flzg.  i.Raum Bodensee-Ulm: 6.200 m. 23.15 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.44
15.03.44 Fw. Helmut Bunje 4./NJG 6 4-mot. Flzg. 30 km. S.W. Echterdingen: 6.700 m. 23.19 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.4
15.03.44 Uffz. Müller Stab I./JG 301 Lancaster  N. Stuttgart: 5.400 m. 23.23 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.2
15.03.44 Hptm. Heinz-Horst Hißbach 5./NJG 2 4-mot. Flzg.  70 km. S. Stuttgart: 6.300 m. 23.26 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.56
15.03.44 Uffz. Bruno Rupp 4./NJG 3 4-mot. Flzg.  S.W. Stuttgart: 5.800 m. 23.28 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.38
15.03.44 Hptm. Berthold Ney Stab III./NJG 2 4-mot. Flzg.  Stuttgart: 6.500 m. 23.28 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.6
15.03.44 Fw. Laubenstein Stab I./JG 301 Lancaster N. Stuttgart: 5.500 m. 23.28 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.6
15.03.44 Ltn. Ternieden 6./NJG 2 4-mot. Flzg.  15 km. S.S.E. Tübingen: 6.000 m. 23.32 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.45
15.03.44 Uffz. Kilchling [sic] 7./NJG 1 4-mot. Flzg.südl. Stuttgart: 5.500 m. 23.33 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.43
15.03.44 Uffz. Oppermann 8./NJG 2 4-mot. Flzg.  N. Stuttgart: 5.600 m. 23.32 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.4
15.03.44 Oblt. Rolf Bussmann 10./NJG 5 4-mot. Flzg.  E. Offenburg: 5.600 m. 23.32 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.6
15.03.44 Uffz. Koch I./JG 301 Lancaster S.W. Stuttgart: 5.800 m. 23.35 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.7
15.03.44 Uffz. Koch I./JG 301 Lancaster  Stuttgart: 6.200 m. 23.35 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.5
15.03.44 Ltn. Trabert 9./JG 300 4-mot. Flzg. S. Stuttgart: 5.400 m. 23.36 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.3
15.03.44 Uffz. Lorenz Gerstmayr 4./NJG 3 4-mot. Flzg.  S.E. Stuttgart: 5.800 m. 23.37 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.39
15.03.44 Hptm. Floitgraf Stab III./NJG 102 Halifax  Raum Bernhausen: no height 23.37 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.1
15.03.44 Ltn. Gabler 9./JG 300 4-mot. Flzg.  S. Stuttgart: 4.500 m. 23.39 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: ASM
15.03.44 Oblt. Rolf Bussmann 10./NJG 5 4-mot. Flzg.  Schlettert-Strasbourg: 6.200 m. 23.45 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.7
15.03.44 Oblt. Rolf Bussmann 10./NJG 5 4-mot. Flzg.Raum St. Die: 5.800 m. 23.56 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.8
16.03.44 Oblt. Dietrich Schmidt 8./NJG 1 Lancaster  1 km. S.E. Longwiller: 6.300 m. 00.56 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.34
16.03.44 Hptm. Ludwig Meister 1./NJG 4 Halifax südl. Aachen: 6.000 m. 01.11 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.22
16.03.44 Hptm. Ludwig Meister 1./NJG 4 Lancaster  2 km. S. Berine: 6.300 m. 01.30 Film C. 20


Reich West Sud Jana Pr PDF - [PDF Document]

15./16. März 1944 23:10 bis 00:13 Uhr Innenstadt, Akademie, Vaihingen, Möhringen 88 Tote, 203 Verwundete 863

Flak in Stuttgart Flakstellungen

1594118505749.png
 
Last edited:
Notice something strange. Same minute 500 meter height difference.

1594120253082.png


Koch, Gerhard Ofw101/JG-301 (3/44), 6/JG-300 (8/44), I/JG-301Fw 190A-8 Werk # 683323 "Yellow 5" (lost 2/25/45)EP


EK 1 & 2
Fighter Operational Clasp KIA 25 February, 1945 during aerial combat with P-51s near Salzwebel airfield (Boiten). Two known victories, the same day, both Lancasters SW of Stuttgart on 15 March, 1944. His 3rd, a Lancaster 25 km north of St Leu d Esserent France on 5 July, 1944. His 4th, a "4 mot" at Calais on 6 July, 1944. His 5th, a 2nd "4 mot", same day, at Dunkirk. A 6th, a "4 mot" at Senarpont on 8 July, 1944. A 7th, a B-17 at Brünn on 29 August, 1944. Numbers 8 and 9, a B-24 and a P-51 while opposing the Misburg Raid on 26 November, 1944. A 10th, a P-51 at Gross-Welle on 5 December, 1944.
 
Snautzer01 said:
Night: 15-16. March 1944
R.A.F. Bomber Command: STUTTGART
JaFüe I. u. II. Jagdkorps:
15.03.44 Hptm. Eckart-Wilhelm von Bonin Stab II./NJG 1 4-mot. Flzg.  EN: 5.400 m. [St. Loup-Luxeuil] 22.10 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.43
15.03.44 Oblt. Heinz Rökker 2./NJG 2 4-mot. Flzg.  50 km. S.W. Strasbourg: 6.200 m. 22.26 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.6
15.03.44 Hptm. Reschke Stab I./NJG 1 4-mot. Flzg.  S.W. Strasbourg: no height 22.32 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.67
15.03.44 Maj. Rolf Leuchs Stab II./NJG 6 4-mot. Flzg.  25 km. S.W. St. Die: 5.500 m. 22.35 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.2
15.03.44 Uffz. Deh 6./NJG 1 4-mot. Flzg.N.E. FF Christa: 6.500 m. 22.35 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.39
15.03.44 Hptm. Eckart-Wilhelm von Bonin Stab II./NJG 1 4-mot. Flzg.  EO: 5.800 m. [Le Thillot/Voges] 22.41 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.44
15.03.44 Ofw. Kellermann L.Beo.St. 7 Lancaster 10 km. W. Überlinger See: no height 22.58 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.2
15.03.44 Fw. Rauer 3./NJG 1 4-mot. Flzg.  J Gradnetz BR-CR: 6.200 m. 22.58 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.84
15.03.44 Hptm. Gerhard Raht 4./NJG 3 4-mot. Flzg.  S.W. Stuttgart: 5.700 m. 23.12 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr. -
15.03.44 Oblt. Fritz Lau 4./NJG 1 4-mot. Flzg.südl. Stuttgart: 6.300 m. 23.14 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.61
15.03.44 Oblt. Koeberich 6./NJG 2 4-mot. Flzg.  i.Raum Bodensee-Ulm: 6.200 m. 23.15 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.44
15.03.44 Fw. Helmut Bunje 4./NJG 6 4-mot. Flzg. 30 km. S.W. Echterdingen: 6.700 m. 23.19 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.4
15.03.44 Uffz. Müller Stab I./JG 301 Lancaster  N. Stuttgart: 5.400 m. 23.23 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.2
15.03.44 Hptm. Heinz-Horst Hißbach 5./NJG 2 4-mot. Flzg.  70 km. S. Stuttgart: 6.300 m. 23.26 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.56
15.03.44 Uffz. Bruno Rupp 4./NJG 3 4-mot. Flzg.  S.W. Stuttgart: 5.800 m. 23.28 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.38
15.03.44 Hptm. Berthold Ney Stab III./NJG 2 4-mot. Flzg.  Stuttgart: 6.500 m. 23.28 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.6
15.03.44 Fw. Laubenstein Stab I./JG 301 Lancaster N. Stuttgart: 5.500 m. 23.28 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.6
**************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
15.03.44 Ltn. Ternieden 6./NJG 2 4-mot. Flzg.  15 km. S.S.E. Tübingen: 6.000 m. 23.32 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.45
15.03.44 Uffz. Kilchling [sic] 7./NJG 1 4-mot. Flzg.südl. Stuttgart: 5.500 m. 23.33 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.43
15.03.44 Uffz. Oppermann 8./NJG 2 4-mot. Flzg.  N. Stuttgart: 5.600 m. 23.32 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.4
15.03.44 Oblt. Rolf Bussmann 10./NJG 5 4-mot. Flzg.  E. Offenburg: 5.600 m. 23.32 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.6
15.03.44 Uffz. Koch I./JG 301 Lancaster S.W. Stuttgart: 5.800 m. 23.35 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.7 **************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
15.03.44 Uffz. Koch I./JG 301 Lancaster  Stuttgart: 6.200 m. 23.35 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.5 **************************************************************************************************************************************************************************15.03.44 Ltn. Trabert 9./JG 300 4-mot. Flzg. S. Stuttgart: 5.400 m. 23.36 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.3
15.03.44 Uffz. Lorenz Gerstmayr 4./NJG 3 4-mot. Flzg.  S.E. Stuttgart: 5.800 m. 23.37 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.39
15.03.44 Hptm. Floitgraf Stab III./NJG 102 Halifax  Raum Bernhausen: no height 23.37 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.1
15.03.44 Ltn. Gabler 9./JG 300 4-mot. Flzg.  S. Stuttgart: 4.500 m. 23.39 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: ASM
15.03.44 Oblt. Rolf Bussmann 10./NJG 5 4-mot. Flzg.  Schlettert-Strasbourg: 6.200 m. 23.45 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.7
15.03.44 Oblt. Rolf Bussmann 10./NJG 5 4-mot. Flzg.Raum St. Die: 5.800 m. 23.56 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.8
16.03.44 Oblt. Dietrich Schmidt 8./NJG 1 Lancaster  1 km. S.E. Longwiller: 6.300 m. 00.56 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.34
16.03.44 Hptm. Ludwig Meister 1./NJG 4 Halifax südl. Aachen: 6.000 m. 01.11 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.22
16.03.44 Hptm. Ludwig Meister 1./NJG 4 Lancaster  2 km. S. Berine: 6.300 m. 01.30 Film C. 20

*THE ONES THAT I HAVE MARKED ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT COULD HAVE SHOT DOWN ONE OR BOTH OF MY LANCASTERS IF IT WAS A NIGHTFIGHTER PLANE, AND NOT FLAK.*



Reich West Sud Jana Pr PDF - [PDF Document]

15./16. März 1944 23:10 bis 00:13 Uhr Innenstadt, Akademie, Vaihingen, Möhringen 88 Tote, 203 Verwundete 863

Flak in Stuttgart Flakstellungen

View attachment 587330
Click to expand...

THE PLANES WERE SHOT DOWN AND COLLIDED OVER KORNWESTHEIM -- given the Flak information above, which one would have been the most likely?

1594122917541.png
 
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