Aerial Recon on the Western Front

[Juha]

Hello Aozora
there are info on some PR IV losses in Norway in the site I mentioned, Allied Wrecksites, e.g. Spitfire Forbordfjellet Stjørdal and Spitfire Mk IV Beverdalen Surnadal. PR Spits are easy to find from the table because all Spits mentioned are PR planes.

Juha

 

[Tante Ju]

Juha, when you start putting facts on the table and not just opinion, we can have discussion.

 

[Aozora]

I wouldn't be too hasty to single out the Ju 88 as being inefficient compared with the Mossie as a recon aircraft; the effectiveness of German recon aircraft shouldn't really be in question as British recon losses over enemy territory was also high - although the Mossie was a better performer than the Ju 88, nevertheless, the issue was that British air defences improved to an extent that German aircraft could not operate satisfactorily over Britain. The key reasons for the downfall of German out of theatre strategic recon - and yes, they had their specialised unit like the PRU, before Sidney Cotton came along and it was formed as a branch of the Abwehr and it produced extraordinarily complete images of future enemy countries' defences during peacetime and also during wartime over North Africa, Italy and crucially over Russia produced very good coverage of these countries - was numerous.

One aspect that causes us to disregard German PR is the scant attention it gets in the press. Very few dedicated books have been produced on the Aufklarungsgruppen by comparison to British recon in particular, especially the PRUs and Mr Cotton, but , like I said, the German photo recon was of no less importance to them, was well equipped and technically very efficient and equally as capable as that of the Allies during the war.

One book which gives coverage to Rowehl's Verschuchsverbund and successor units is On Special Missions by J Richard Smith, Eddie J Creek and Peter Petrick: I've only just got a copy so haven't had a chance to read it properly.

Two aircraft types the book describes are the Arado Ar 240 and Ju 88B:

at least two unarmed Ar 240s were used by the VfH and Afkl.Gr.Ob.d.l to photograph some coastal towns in Britain during 1942 and 1944 - the Ar 240 could reach 384 mph at 19,700 ft. (pages 14 19)

While evading Spitfires during a PR mission over Britain, a Ju 88B with GM 1 reached about 385 mph in a shallow dive at about 15,000 ft although the aircraft (T9-FH of 1./Verschuchsverbund Ob.d.l ) was shot down soon afterwards, although by what isn't mentioned (5 June 1943 pages 27 30).

 

[Juha]

Juha, when you start putting facts on the table and not just opinion, we can have discussion.

Now I truly doubt that we can have discussion on German failures, IMHO you are one of those Germans who still had difficulties to accept that those "degenerated Englishmen" played their part in kicking "blond knights of Reich with their wunderwaffen" out of WWII.

That Germans were fooled in Summer 44 is a fact
On the Scapa issue I gave the facts in my message #114
And on G-4/R3 in my message #47, George Hopp is well known researcher, look e.g. Kurfürst site, there are some docus delivered by GH if you are unware his Bf 110 book.

Juha

 

[Tante Ju]

In that case we can agree to disagree. I find it too often so that your post are devoid of any rational or factual substance and invariable turn into pure ad hominem postings, which ain't worth reading, or responding to.

In contrast, I found some interesting things to learn from others in this thread, and if you do not mind, I shall concentrate on those more constructive discussions instead.

 

[Milosh]

One could cross reference the Spitfire losses with Tony Woods Luftwaffe claim list.

AB125 PRIV 2304 HEA M45 5MU 26-11-41 543S 22-1-43 Missing PR mission Rotterdam 10-2-43

10. February 1943
R.A.F. 11 Group Ramrod: CAEN
10.02.43 Uffz. Walter Leber 3./JG 2 Spitfire £ 10 km. N. Caen: 2.000 m.
10.02.43 Hptm. Helmut -Felix Bolz Stab I./JG 2 Spitfire £ 7 km. N.E. Orne-Mündung: 2.000 m.
10.02.43 Ltn. Joachim Bialucha 2./JG 2 Spitfire £ 50 km. N.W. Havre: 10 m.
10.02.43 Ofw. Friedrich Klöpper 3./JG 2 Spitfire £ Orne -Mündung: 200-250 m.

So it looks like AB125 was lost to other than air enemy action.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

And here we go again. Same old **** again.

Same fricken people that have to start degenerating a thread.

Can you please save me the time and effort, and just go someplace else. If you have no desire to act like an adult, get lost!!! Or I will do it for you.

This is not a Kindergarten! Verstehst du mich????

 

[Airframes]

Just a quick question and nothing important but if anyone can give an answer to it then it will cure my curiosity. In Ben Mcintyre's Agent Zig Zag, the true story of Eddie Chapman, Chapman was said to have parachuted into Britain from a fast flying German recon plane said to have been a Focke Wulf. I am think this was actually probably a Ju 88, I would be grateful for any information anyone may have.
Or to ask a more general question what sort of aircraft did the Germans use to deliver agents into Britain? I am aware that some German agents came by sea via Spain or Portugal.

I wondered that when I read the book. I would think it was a FW 58 'Weihe', designed as a light bomber trainer, but also used as an air ambulance and known to be used for dropping agents. Its relatively quiet engines would be advantageous in this role, rather than use the He 111, Ju 88 and 188, also employed for para dropping. In the movie 'Triple Cross', loosely based on Chapman's story, which was still covered by the Official Secrets Act at the time, a Siebel was used.
And I totally agree with Adler !

 

[nuuumannn]

Yep, Oldskeptic, I do agree with you on the majority of your post, but my point is to not take for granted how efficient German PR was and that it wasn't because of the inefficiencies of the equipment the Germans used that cost them.

I have absolutely no doubt that if they placed similar priority on it they would have been able to maintain a good capability right to the end, albeit their lack of a fast twin would have caused issues with VLR recon in contested airspace.

Unfortunately I have to disagree with you here, simply because they could not maintain a continued war effort of the same magnitude as they had begun with. Again, it's not the lack of a long range recon aircraft that prevented them from carrying out continued recon, but a lack of enough of them and resources in general, largely owing to Allied air superiority over Allied air space and growing Allied air superiority over mainland Europe as the war wore on.

As for Sidney Cotton, yes, I'm well aware of what he achieved, very much so; very important for British recon, which was literally in the Dark Ages and far behind Germany until he appeared. Like I've stated before, what he had achieved was not new; the Germans also had been carrying out clandestine flights using hidden cameras in civlian aircraft before Cotton introduced the idea to the British - this is not to say that I'm diminishing the magnitude of his efforts, but to also state that he was not alone in his desire to change the face of photo recon, although his efforts to convince the hierarchy to converting Spitfires as long range photo recon platforms took some beating; I still believe that although the Germans also used single-engined fighters for PR work, they were not modified as extensively as Spitfires, except perhaps the very few numbers of (only one?) Fw 190Ds, but by then it was too late for the Germans.

 

[nuuumannn]

One thing I should add regarding the conversion of Spitfires for PR work that might be of interest; an RAF chap by the name of Maurice 'Shorty' Longbottom wrote a paper stating that fast high speed aircraft could be used for photo recon in early 1939, although converting them was known as 'Cottonising' after the work Cotton did on the examples given to his experimental unit at Heston. The aircraft had gaps and excresences faired over with plaster of Paris and were highly polished, once painted in 'Camotint', giving them a highly smooth finish, also, windscreen armour plating was removed, as was guns and other unnecessary weight. The canopies were fitted with teardrops either side for better visibility dowwards and incresed oil and fuel tankage. It was truly remarkable that a small short range fighter could be modified to carry enough fuel and cameras to fly at extremely high altitude, still maintain respectable speed over enemy territory and have the range to reach almost across Germany. I remember reading of a PR.XI carrying out recon over Berlin.

 

[stona]

Berlin was no problem at all. This has been posted before, so for the Berlin bit skip to about 7.40. If you haven't seen this then it is well worth a watch to hear first hand how they flew these missions directly from one of the typically modest men who was there and did it.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie3SrjLlcUY

Cheers

Steve

 

[Njaco]

I've had enough - I've had enough - I've had ENOUGH!!

Tante, you are gone! You make the most asinine statements I have ever seen by someone over 10 years of age. You claim that 523% of PR flights were shot down by LW then when shown your data is screwed you give thanks for showing that it was the fault of the British design or whatever then you go right back to the statement that the LW shot down all the PR flights!!!!!!

But I can take all that EXCEPT the tea comment before Caen remark. That was disparaging the servicemen of a country and their memory. That was too much. Thats like saying Germany lost the war because they ate too much weinerschnizzel. You are gone! Take your twisted facts and play in another sand box.

And the ice has cracked. Be careful. He is not the only one who stirs the pot. The Mods are getting tired of the cr@p.

 

[pattle]

I wondered that when I read the book. I would think it was a FW 58 'Weihe', designed as a light bomber trainer, but also used as an air ambulance and known to be used for dropping agents. Its relatively quiet engines would be advantageous in this role, rather than use the He 111, Ju 88 and 188, also employed for para dropping. In the movie 'Triple Cross', loosely based on Chapman's story, which was still covered by the Official Secrets Act at the time, a Siebel was used.
And I totally agree with Adler !

I think you are right if it was a Focke Wulf at all it was probably a Fw58. I didn't know that this plane had so many uses or that so many were built. I always thought of it as a minor type but I have just read that about 1350 were built and it was used in recon, training, transport and other duties, a unsung hero of an aircraft. I assume it was only used in recon as a stand in for the FW189 or for coastal work and searching areas occupied by friendly troops etc.

 

[OldSkeptic]

Berlin was no problem at all. This has been posted before, so for the Berlin bit skip to about 7.40. If you haven't seen this then it is well worth a watch to hear first hand how they flew these missions directly from one of the typically modest men who was there and did it.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie3SrjLlcUY

Cheers

Steve

Thanks for that, brilliant. 51 missions, amazing.

Love his quote: "that was the sweetest aeroplane, any pilot should fly it at least once".

Note Berlin and back ... without drop tanks. Ties in with my calcs on a LR fighter Spit.

 

[Aozora]

Thanks for that, brilliant. 51 missions, amazing.

Love his quote: "that was the sweetest aeroplane, any pilot should fly it at least once".

Note Berlin and back ... without drop tanks. Ties in with my calcs on a LR fighter Spit.

Ditto, thanks for that. The look on his face when he saw the footage of him coming in for the crash landing on 12 September 1944...must have been the first time he'd seen it in 70 years. Priceless.

These are the guys we're talking about when we rabbit on about statistics etc

Might pay to remember that.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

He is not the only one who stirs the pot. The Mods are getting tired of the cr@p.

There are several of you that you will not receive any more warnings. You know who you are.

This is not a Kindergarten.

If you don't like it, if you don't want to behave, then just do us all a favor and go and play someplace else. You will not be missed.

 

[OldSkeptic]

Well said, very brave men. We always tend to go on about the fighter pilots and bomber crews, but the PR people were incredible (both the low and high level ones).
Their contribution to victory is probably incalculable.

Mission after mission over enemy territory, on their own for long hours, no guns, just skill and speed to keep them out of harm's way. No jinking and manoeuvring to avoid flak when on their photo runs

In RV Jones book there are some pictures taken by the low level boys, including Tony Hill's (who was sadly killed later) famous radar shot at about zero feet.

 

[GrauGeist]

PR certainly had it's hazards...it even claimed Antoine de Saint-Exupéry and his F-5 in 1944

 

[nuuumannn]

Well, I wouldn't say Berlin was 'no problem', Steve, but I do get what you are saying. It was a remarkable achievement at that time. That's a neat film; I've seen it before and really enjoyed the footage. Good to see it again though; thanks for posting.

The Fw 58 was a maid of all work; the German equivalent to the Anson. They were everywhere the LW went.

Tony Hill's (who was sadly killed later) famous radar shot at about zero feet.

An Aussie forum member is a direct relation to Hill. Operation Biting was a classic example of the strategic use of intelligence and British resourcefulness. A great story. There's a good book about it called The Bruneval Raid; Stealing Hitler's radar by George Millar; well worth reading.

 

[Aozora]

Well said, very brave men. We always tend to go on about the fighter pilots and bomber crews, but the PR people were incredible (both the low and high level ones).
Their contribution to victory is probably incalculable.

Mission after mission over enemy territory, on their own for long hours, no guns, just skill and speed to keep them out of harm's way. No jinking and manoeuvring to avoid flak when on their photo runs

In RV Jones book there are some pictures taken by the low level boys, including Tony Hill's (who was sadly killed later) famous radar shot at about zero feet.

Flt Lt Tony Hill went to photograph that Wurzburg at Dr Jones' request and was unable to get any photos because the camera failed, although he could describe what the radar looked like. He volunteered to go back the next day to have another go at it, although he didn't have to because PRU policy was not to repeat a run on successive days, particularly on tricky targets.

This is what his Spitfire might have looked like, using an overall white or PRU pale pink camoutint used on some low-level "dicing" Spitfires (although this is the one-off Spitfire PR IE, without the lateral camera)

or it could have looked like this (Spitfire PR Mk IV(T) BP888 )

Another PR pilot I've just been reading about is a Canadian, Flt Lt Edmund "Pappy" Dunn:

A Bitter struggle - The Pappy Dunn Story > les Ailes d