Aircraft Identification V
- Thread starter red admiral
- Start date
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Looks a bit like an Airspeed Ambassador, a civil airliner, but with a deeper tail section. Presumably that's the loading ramp/doors.
AMCKen
Senior Airman
Fuselage brings to mind the P-61 center section.
Hmmm..I smell a trick here Wayne.
It just looks too obvious as the Ambassador. If it was designed to be a "tactical military transport" then it flew as one, but it didn't look like this?Then this must rule out the Ambassador as it was always intended (from what I've read) to be a post-war civil airliner with double the capacity (passengers) of the DC-3.
Avro (early York design?) Blackburn (there were twin engine designs for the Beverly?) Or should I just start wiping the egg off my face now?...
Airframes and Graeme, I suppose I'll have to end it now. Yes, it does look like the Ambassador, because it was based on the same core design at the same time, 1944. The Ambassador was Arthur Hagg's Brabazon airliner offering, this, with a different, fatter, fuselage and rear loading ramp but the same wings, engines and tail (Avro York fashion) was his intended replacemenr for the RAF's Dakota's, the Ayrshire.
Reported in Flight in 1945 as 'now in production for the RAF', this was wishful thinking as it never progressed beyond mock up stage as the end of the war saw the contract terminated and Airspeed pressed on at full speed with the Ambassador instead.
Reported in Flight in 1945 as 'now in production for the RAF', this was wishful thinking as it never progressed beyond mock up stage as the end of the war saw the contract terminated and Airspeed pressed on at full speed with the Ambassador instead.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Thanks for that. I hadn't realised it started as a military requirement. The Ambassador is close to my heart, as they were the main type at Newcastle Airport when I was a young 'spotter', doing anything to get near to aircraft. They were the ex BEA 'Elizabethan' class aircraft, operated by BKS and, of course, always refered to as the 'Lizzie'. Very nice looking aeroplane.
Yes, the numbers do follow chronologically, Graeme. What I probably didn't write very clearly was that the Ambassador and Ayrshire were deliberately designed at the same time from a common root airframe design (hence the identical wings tail, engines etc).
Hagg drew his brabazon airliner first but he had both models in mind from the start, which is why the Ambassadors shape is so suited to a rough field military transport with its high wing and low floor. Alternative schemes with piston and turboprop power, both with 2 and 4 engines, were created for both models while still at the design stage too, hence the numbering. The Ambassador 2 with 2 RR Darts and a stretch for 8 more passengers came out of these studies but the only turbine powered model to fly was the Eland powered development prototype.
The AS.66 and 67 were not military transports, as in the article, they were civil freighter versions of the Ayrshire. The final scheme was a larger 4x Proteus stretched Ambassador designed as the AS.68. Another curiosity was a 'mini-Ambassaor', the AS.64, which was intended to be competitive with the DH Dove for the Brabazon 5b requirement.
Hagg drew his brabazon airliner first but he had both models in mind from the start, which is why the Ambassadors shape is so suited to a rough field military transport with its high wing and low floor. Alternative schemes with piston and turboprop power, both with 2 and 4 engines, were created for both models while still at the design stage too, hence the numbering. The Ambassador 2 with 2 RR Darts and a stretch for 8 more passengers came out of these studies but the only turbine powered model to fly was the Eland powered development prototype.
The AS.66 and 67 were not military transports, as in the article, they were civil freighter versions of the Ayrshire. The final scheme was a larger 4x Proteus stretched Ambassador designed as the AS.68. Another curiosity was a 'mini-Ambassaor', the AS.64, which was intended to be competitive with the DH Dove for the Brabazon 5b requirement.
Thanks Wayne, for the detailed summary.
Here's how my confusion and doubts arose...
I managed to find the article with the photo you posted. The date is listed as September 12 1946. At this stage the Ayrshire is described only as a model and a "militarised version of the Ambassador"...
armstrong whitworth | 1946 | 1785 | Flight Archive
...and since the first flight of the Ambassador was only 10 months away I guessed that Airspeed must have already been in the process of construction. This is backed up by an advertisement appearing in Janes 45/46 (which some doubt!) with the line.."Designed and now under construction". Therefore I concluded, incorrectly, that the AS.60 couldn't have been a concurrent design as...
A) the Brabazon Type IIA request did not involve military transports, and
B) was still in the model phase by end of 1946.
Brabazon Committee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It obviously went through a lot of design changes, as you mentioned, before reaching a 47/49 passenger format. I've read that Airspeeds' slow production rate and failure to develop the turboprop version saved the Vickers Viscount from obscurity.
Here's how my confusion and doubts arose...
I managed to find the article with the photo you posted. The date is listed as September 12 1946. At this stage the Ayrshire is described only as a model and a "militarised version of the Ambassador"...
armstrong whitworth | 1946 | 1785 | Flight Archive
...and since the first flight of the Ambassador was only 10 months away I guessed that Airspeed must have already been in the process of construction. This is backed up by an advertisement appearing in Janes 45/46 (which some doubt!) with the line.."Designed and now under construction". Therefore I concluded, incorrectly, that the AS.60 couldn't have been a concurrent design as...
A) the Brabazon Type IIA request did not involve military transports, and
B) was still in the model phase by end of 1946.
Brabazon Committee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It obviously went through a lot of design changes, as you mentioned, before reaching a 47/49 passenger format. I've read that Airspeeds' slow production rate and failure to develop the turboprop version saved the Vickers Viscount from obscurity.
Good stuff Graeme, thanks. Yes, by that time the Ambassador was well known (those ads had appeared in Flight too) and although the Air Ministry had dropped its interest in the Ayrshire already (as opposed to the claim) Airspeed were hoping to attract foreign sales (and fund the civil models of it too) hence the displaying of the model at Radlett in '46 (this was the forerunner of the Farnborough Show, which began in 1948).
I can see light between plane and ground, so no "secret paper project" here.
The Ilyushin Il-102...
Ilyushin Il-102 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dutch. Werkspoor Jumbo. 1929. Their only attempt at aircraft making.
Translated via google translate tool:
Translated version of http://www.airwar.ru/enc/cw1/jumbo.html
Translated via google translate tool:
Translated version of http://www.airwar.ru/enc/cw1/jumbo.html
That's good enough for me Wayne. Yep, a Tsybin it is. The Tsybin RSR R-020 with wing tip R-11F jet engines. Three were completed but never flown?
