Tzaw1
Airman 1st Class
It was Avro 694 Lincoln with Napier Nomad II in its nose too. It served as a test-bed (so as Yak-42E LL).
Aircraft With Contrarotating Props
- Thread starter carson1934
- Start date
Whoops, I nearly goofed here .. getting confused between Spiteful Seafang. Seafang with contraprops - yes, but did the Spiteful (the F15) with the Griffon 89, which was used in the Seafang, also have contras? A picture would clinch it, for sure.
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- Thread starter
- #103
carson1934
Senior Airman
Hi Siznaudin,
so my list concerning Supermarine Seafang is accurate except for number built which is 18 (from Wiki's data) rather than 1 as I wrote down.
Besides, as you can see, I asked AMCKen to supply (if possible naturally) a picture of the Spiteful with contra's
after all he's the one who stated in his post #97 that besides Seafang's with contra's there's also a Spiteful with contra's.
Let's wait and see
all the best
carson1934
- Thread starter
- #104
carson1934
Senior Airman
Yeah Tzaw1 I checked very carefully all Lincoln's used as testbeds for additional engines.
It remains to be seen whether the extra added turboprops required contraprops or not.....
I'll check later on (today I have no time) and I'll let all know
Cheers
carson1934
- Thread starter
- #105
carson1934
Senior Airman
I had a quick look Tzaw...I don't think any of the Lincoln's with added turboprops ever had contrarotatimg props.
I'm attaching a pic if the Avro Lincoln with Bristol Theseus turboprops from which you can clearly see that no contraprops are visible.....naturally should anybody know of the existance of Lincoln's with contra's do let me know
Cheers
carson1934
Attachments
Tzaw1
Airman 1st Class
Photo from Alec Lumsden, British Piston Aero-Engines and their Aircraft, p. 172.
Nomad II was a piston engine.
Spiteful, according Robert Humphreys The Supermarine Spitfire, Part 2: Griffon-Powered, was only one plane F Mk 16. This was a basically F Mk 14 (RB518 ) with mounted Griffon 121 and six-blade contra-rotating Rotol prop. It was the end final state, because at first F Mk 16 had the Griffon 101 and five-blade Rotol prop.
And... the yet one small to explaining. On two photoes Airspeed Courier with the engine Napier Rapier IV is apparently - for my old eyes - two propellers. But nobody hereof does not write. Other photos show the plane on the fly, so with difficulty to say, how much it is blades.
Nomad II was a piston engine.
Spiteful, according Robert Humphreys The Supermarine Spitfire, Part 2: Griffon-Powered, was only one plane F Mk 16. This was a basically F Mk 14 (RB518 ) with mounted Griffon 121 and six-blade contra-rotating Rotol prop. It was the end final state, because at first F Mk 16 had the Griffon 101 and five-blade Rotol prop.
And... the yet one small to explaining. On two photoes Airspeed Courier with the engine Napier Rapier IV is apparently - for my old eyes - two propellers. But nobody hereof does not write. Other photos show the plane on the fly, so with difficulty to say, how much it is blades.
Attachments
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- #107
carson1934
Senior Airman
Hi Tzaw1
thanks very much for the beautiful post to which I'm adding following comments:
1) Avro Lincoln (S/N 973) did have a Napier Nomad II engine mounted in the nose and driving contraprops therefore this aircraft will be included in a revised listing that I'll compile end of July pending receipt of possible further amendments,
2) the Napier Nomad engine was a supercharged diesel piston engine incorporating a turboprop
3) Spiteful - It would be ideal to have a picture of said plane F.Mk.16 with Griffon 121 + Rotol contraprops. I'll keep this position open for the time being....
4) Airspeed Courier with engine Napier Rapier IV.
Your pictures look like contraprops but I agree it is very tricky to be sure about it. I'll make further investigations.
5) Concerning the numerous Avro Lincoln's used as testbeds for various turboprop engines I have found no evidence besides of course Avro Lincoln S/N 973 that they were ever fitted with contrarotating props.
In the next few days I'll open up a thread and see what happens.
We might have further surprises
Cheers
carson1934
Tzaw1
Airman 1st Class
The turbine's with the main assignment was to drive a compressor. Only relative small part of surplus power from turbine was given to propeller.
I would hesitate to call this engine turboprop. Maybe hybrid? But turboprop, no.
According to Putnam's Supermarine Aircraft Since 1914, the Spiteful XV designation was applied to Spiteful XIV's that were fitted with the Griffon89/90 and a contra rotating propeller, there is no photograph to accompany it though.
I have also just referred to Mike Lithgow's book Mach One and in there he makes no mention of the Contra prop version, though interestingly he does say that when the 494mph speed was set on RB518 they were 'all rather tired of RB518 by this time and we were rather hoping it would be irreparable' They were trying to wreck it! He further goes on to say that the plane was dropped from a crane after the flight to finish it off!
I have also just referred to Mike Lithgow's book Mach One and in there he makes no mention of the Contra prop version, though interestingly he does say that when the 494mph speed was set on RB518 they were 'all rather tired of RB518 by this time and we were rather hoping it would be irreparable' They were trying to wreck it! He further goes on to say that the plane was dropped from a crane after the flight to finish it off!
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AMCKen
Senior Airman
Article here mentions the Spiteful XV. Also, as in the article, the XVI had a Griffon 101, not 121 and a single 5-bladed propellor. Seems the Seafang prototype was converted from the one XV built.
seafire | spitfire | 1953 | 1321 | Flight Archive
Books at home so no photo of the XV yet.
seafire | spitfire | 1953 | 1321 | Flight Archive
Books at home so no photo of the XV yet.
Tzaw1
Airman 1st Class
So, there is a mess. 
According Lumsden, Griffons 89, 91, 92, 101, 102, 105, 121, 122 and 130, all are with contra-rotating props. The only difference between 101 and 121 was a gearing ratio.
According Lumsden, Griffons 89, 91, 92, 101, 102, 105, 121, 122 and 130, all are with contra-rotating props. The only difference between 101 and 121 was a gearing ratio.
Thanks to recommendation from this site I have now Price's "The Spitfire Story" on the shelf. Excellent publication, too. Image inserted here from page 238 is self explanatory - I don't think I saw the MK 24 listed, Carson - although there was evidently only the one example, as the caption suggests.
The Lumsden book looks pretty tempting too, by the way!
The Lumsden book looks pretty tempting too, by the way!
- Thread starter
- #114
carson1934
Senior Airman
Thanks to recommendation from this site I have now Price's "The Spitfire Story" on the shelf. Excellent publication, too. Image inserted here from page 238 is self explanatory - I don't think I saw the MK 24 listed, Carson - although there was evidently only the one example, as the caption suggests.
The Lumsden book looks pretty tempting too, by the way!
Hi Siznaudin
thanks for your continued interest and for the rare picture of Spitfire Mk.24 with contra-rotating props (only one built?) which will find way in my new revised list to be edited end of July
carson1934
- Thread starter
- #115
carson1934
Senior Airman
Good morning Tzaw1,
concerning the Airspeed Courier this is the very detailed reply I obtained this morning from a member to the thread I started yesterday:QUOTE
Putnams Airspeed Aircraft since 1931 by HA Taylor mentions this particular aircraft, the only AS5C. Delivered in 1934 it was used for test and demonstrations with the 16 cylinder Rapier 4 of 350 hp.
It was re-engined with a Lynx IVC and operated by Portsmouth, Southsea and Isle of Wight aviation as a AS5A before being impressed as X9346 on 18th March 1940 and used by the ATA at White Waltham and Hawarden until being sent for communication duties at Airspeed 13th March 1941. It was sent to 5 MU on the 18th January 1944 but was struck off charge on the 12th April of that year. Unfortunately there is nothing about a contra-rotating propeller. For what it's worth, I have never heard of such a mod - but absolutely anything is possible in the wonderful world of aviation!
UNQUOTE
Unless I receive definite confirmation about a contra-rotating propeller I am not inclined to include this aircraft in the list.
However as the above gentleman says: "Anything is possible in the wonderful world of aviation
Again Tzaw thanks very much for going out of the way and finding such rare pics!
carson1934
- Thread starter
- #116
carson1934
Senior Airman
Good morning Ken,
the question of the Spiteful seems to be getting more and more intricate with rather conflicting information from one author to the other (which is quite understable).
Therefore, for the time being, I'll make no mention in my revised list of the Spiteful unless I receive or find a picture of same plus conclusive evidence.
Cheers
carson1934
- Thread starter
- #117
carson1934
Senior Airman
Carson, You can also add the Avro Lancaster to the list, here is Lancaster TW911 being used as a testebed for the Armstrong Siddeley Python in 1949.
OK Waynos good job, I'll include alson for sure TW911 in my next revised list (to be edited end of July).
My next move is going to be the starting of a new thread with a view of obtaining as much information as possible on the Avro Lincoln's used as a testbed with various turboprops andcontrarotating props
carson1934
I have another for you, the Fairey Firefly IV, a one off demonstrator that proved the benefit of comntra props to naval aircraft and was offered as an option for future sale but never taken up. the caption for the photo is below the other text, which does not relate to the picture.
G'day Wayne! Nice photo. Never knew a Firefly was ever fitted out with a contraprop. Regards the caption, "Mr Twiss is the pilot" is that referring to Peter Twiss of Fairey FD2 world speed record fame?
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