"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (2 Viewers)

Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules

Thumpalumpacus said:
And the article itself focuses on combined arms, but there's very little Western support in terms of airpower for Ukraine, which rather undercuts the point. Combined arms without airpower is like a dog hunting on three legs.
Click to expand...
Even if Ukraine had two hundred Vipers today I don't think they could wrestle air superiority over the front. Sending 4th gen fighters, be them Vipers or Fulcrums over the Russian lines would be a next gen SAM and MANPADS bloodbath. Survivability over the 21st century battlefield through stealth and latest tech is a big reason NATO is moving to the F-35.

If the USA was fighting this war you'd have E-3 Sentry-guided Raptors clearing the skies, Lightnings clearing the ground, and JSOW-armed Spirits and SSN-launched TLAMS killing everything strategic in the back. A couple of hundred 4th gen F-16s will not match this level of air strike capability.
 
Last edited:
Admiral Beez said:
Even if Ukraine had two hundred Vipers today I don't think they could wrestle air superiority over the front. Sending 4th gen fighters, be them Vipers or Fulcrums over the Russian lines would be a next gen SAM and MANPADS bloodbath. Survivability over the 21st century battlefield through stealth and latest tech is a big reason NATO is moving to the F-35.

If the USA was fighting this war you'd have E-3 Sentry-guided Raptors clearing the skies, Lightnings clearing the ground, and JSOW-armed Spirits and SSN-launched TLAMS killing everything strategic in the back. A couple of hundred 4th gen F-16s will not match this level of air strike capability.
Click to expand...
Well, that's the point of the F-16, or any 4th gen Nato fighter. Ukrainian F-16s will have way better electronics than their Russian counterparts. The Vipers won't be operating in a vacuum tube. The systems will be be more accurate and certainly longer ranged than their MiG-29s, pushing the VVS further behind Russian lines. The VVS hasn't demonstrated a willingness venture past their own network. I wouldn't be surprised if the avionics of the better maintained F-16s had some "cheat codes" as well, to receive some fatherly advice from Big Brother.
 
Another factor which would presumably come into play is the ECM. I would expect modern ECM to be able to limit the effectiveness of the S400 and almost eliminate the effectiveness of the S300 systems. Russia of course has other systems but few are up to date and are of shorter range.

I hate saying it but right now I have little hope of a Ukraine break through. Because if they do start to achieve it, then everything that Russia has with wings will be thrown into the fight. Ukraine defences would be swamped and the results tragic to the Ukraine Army. F16's would give Ukraine a fighting chance of holding the Russian Airforce at bay. I have no faith that the Mig 29's will be able to hold the line
 
defence-blog.com

Ukraine receives first Senator MRAP vehicles from Canada

The Ukrainian Armed Forces reportedly have received the initial batch of Senator armored vehicles in Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) configuration. Pictures and videos now circulating on social media show a truck carrying what looks to be the first Senator MRAP armored vehicle that...
defence-blog.com defence-blog.com
 
Mike Williams said:
You make a good point, although I'm with Glider in losing hope of seeing a Ukrainian break through. Looks to be a one field at a time slog.
Click to expand...
Hopefully it won't be a meat grinder. Western IFV/APCs seem to be more survivable than their Soviet counterparts. DPICMs will certainly help. I'm disappointed that it hasn't been a thunder run to Berdiansk too. The AFU isn't Nato. They're doing an amazing job incorporating what they can. There's still a Soviet hangover of sorts in their senior ranks. Actual RF troops are dug in an extremely dense trench network behind minefields. It ain't all doom and gloom. Russians logistics suck. Orcs got to eat. Guns need ammo.
 
Glider said:
Another factor which would presumably come into play is the ECM. I would expect modern ECM to be able to limit the effectiveness of the S400 and almost eliminate the effectiveness of the S300 systems. Russia of course has other systems but few are up to date and are of shorter range.

I hate saying it but right now I have little hope of a Ukraine break through. Because if they do start to achieve it, then everything that Russia has with wings will be thrown into the fight. Ukraine defences would be swamped and the results tragic to the Ukraine Army. F16's would give Ukraine a fighting chance of holding the Russian Airforce at bay. I have no faith that the Mig 29's will be able to hold the line
Click to expand...

While the slow progress is worrisome, the fact is that MANPADs, which are rife in both armies, would make life equally difficult for Russian planes. When the Ukrainians break through -- and I believe they will before much longer -- they'll be carrying their own umbrellas.
 
Last edited:
GrauGeist said:
Where was the Red Airforce when Ukraine was overwelming the Russians last summer?
Click to expand...
The reply is of course, they were nowhere to be seen. However it was a situation of total confusion and almost panic from the top down. Now they are defending in strong positions, they have had 12 - 15 months to sort themselves out and get everything planned and measured.
 
Thumpalumpacus said:
While the slow progress is worrisome, the fact is that MANPADs, which are rife in both armies, would make life equally difficulty for Russian planes. When the Ukrainians break through -- and I believe they will before much longer -- they'll be carrying their own umbrellas.
Click to expand...
Trust me when I say that I have never hoped to be more wrong.
 
Mike Williams said:
You make a good point, although I'm with Glider in losing hope of seeing a Ukrainian break through. Looks to be a one field at a time slog.
Click to expand...
The Russian regulars have been given many months to build up their defensive lines whilst the AFU was distracted fighting Wagner for Bakhmut. We all wonder why Russia was fighting for the seemingly strategically insignificant town, but perhaps it was always to grind down Prigozhin while buying time to build up a near-impenetrable wall of mines, trenches and fortifications across southern Ukraine. This would support Putin's faith in the long game, where he believes Ukraine's slow progress will compete with the West's waning attention span and leadership changes.
 
Last edited:
Admiral Beez said:
The Russian regulars have been given many months to build up their defensive lines whilst the AFU was distracted fighting Wagner for Bakhmut. We all wonder why Russia was fighting for the seemingly strategically insignificant town, but perhaps it was always to grind down Prigozhin while buying time to build up a near-impenetrable wall of mines, trenches and fortifications across southern Ukraine. This would support Putin's faith in the long game, where he believes Ukraine's slow progress will compete with the West's waning attention span and leadership changes.
Click to expand...
I agree
 
Admiral Beez said:
The Russian regulars have been given many months to build up their defensive lines whilst the AFU was distracted fighting Wagner for Bakhmut. We all wonder why Russia was fighting for the seemingly strategically insignificant town, but perhaps it was always to grind down Prigozhin while buying time to build up a near-impenetrable wall of mines, trenches and fortifications across southern Ukraine. This would support Putin's faith in the long game, where he believes Ukraine's slow progress will compete with the West's waning attention span and leadership changes.
Click to expand...
However, while Bakhmut was going on, Ukraine kept just enough manpower there to keep pressure on the Russians.

Meanwhile, Ukraine was training new troops and building up their Arsenal.

If we took a close look at this current Ukrainian offensive, we'll note that it's nothing compared to last year in regards to the number of boots on the ground along with a limited number of AFVs.

So while the Russians have invested precious time and effort to dig in, Ukraine has been working on a different strategy.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 3 (members: 1, guests: 2)

Similar threads

M
All V-22's Grounded
Replies
2
Views
1K
GTX
GTX
M
All This For The Low, Low Price of .....
Replies
19
Views
2K
MIflyer
M
M
The Wrath of KAAN?
Replies
3
Views
775
Snautzer01
Snautzer01
M
The USAF V-22 Mishap of 2023
Replies
2
Views
408
Thumpalumpacus
Thumpalumpacus
M
Heart Aerospace Rolls Out 4 Engine 30 Seat Electric Airliner
Replies
8
Views
409
MIflyer
M
Back