"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (1 Viewer)

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Mar 25, 2022

Thumpalumpacus said:
Exactly. The Marshall Plan, and especially the Berlin Airlift reinforcing our commitment to rebuilding any part of Germany we controlled, was crucial in ensuring that Germany evolved into a thriving democracy post-WWII, integrated with the rest of Europe. The Marshall Plan reaped rewards far beyond the costs incurred in executing it.

Compare and contrast that to the post-Versailles treatment of Weimar Germany, and how that treatment allowed for the rise of not only Hitler but widespread right-wing revanchism in general.

I believe, and I don't have much in the way of sourcing for this although I'm sure I could find some, that had we invested both capital and attention in the 90s to a recovering Russia, we would not be where we are today.

Agreed

Hell compare the way the western allies treated West Germany to the way the Russian's treated East Germany.

I was fortunate enough to get a chance to tour East Berlin and parts of East Germany back in 1988 before the fall of the wall. Took the overnight US Army Duty Train from Frankfurt, West Germany to East Berlin. It was a total culture shock for me. Hell you can still see the huge differences between the east and west today decades after German unification.

It's no wonder to me that all these former East Bloc countries want to join NATO. They don't want to get gobbled up under the Russian thumb and behind any future iron curtain.

Thumpalumpacus · Mar 25, 2022

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
It's no wonder to me that all these former East Bloc countries want to join NATO. They don't to get gobbled up under the Russian thumb and behind any future iron curtain.

Not to mention the economic prospects of closer ties to the West, which further gives them real security.

Admiral Beez · Mar 25, 2022

Can this close the skies dare go both ways. Russia says a NATO aircraft engaging a Russian aircraft would be war. So if NATO flies over Ukraine, at its invitation would the Russians shoot down clearly marked and identifiable NATO aircraft?

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Mar 25, 2022

Admiral Beez said:
Can this close the skies dare go both ways. Russia says a NATO aircraft engaging a Russian aircraft would be war. So if NATO flies over Ukraine, at its invitation would the Russians shoot down clearly marked and identifiable NATO aircraft?

That's why its not enforceable. Russia would consider any aircraft as a defense of Ukraine and legit target.

Thumpalumpacus · Mar 25, 2022

Admiral Beez said:
Can this close the skies dare go both ways. Russia says a NATO aircraft engaging a Russian aircraft would be war. So if NATO flies over Ukraine, at its invitation would the Russians shoot down clearly marked and identifiable NATO aircraft?

Yes, they would. They've shown no compunctions so far in killing thousands of civilians and setting a few million more to flight -- or for that matter cutting of their flight, as in the south where they've agreed to multiple cease-fires only to violate them immediately. I doubt they would care enough to look at markings if their transponders give a non-Russian return signal.

GrauGeist · Mar 25, 2022

As mentioned before, a declared "no-fly" zone would have to be established by non-NATO nations with no skin in the game.
The no fly areas would be clearly indicated and provided to Ukraine and Russia with the understanding of zero-tolerance for incursions and/or "mistakes".

Many nations capable of the mission and plenty of neutral sites to base out of.

So it is entirely possible.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Mar 25, 2022

So now the west is trying to "cancel Russia"…

I bet this will be Tucker's next message too.

Vladimir Putin Defends JK Rowling & Claims West Is “Trying To Cancel” Russia; ‘Harry Potter’ Author Responds – Update

UPDATE, 07:45: JK Rowling responded to Vladimir Putin’s TV broadcast today in which the Russian president defended her as a victim of cancel culture and claimed the West was attempting to cancel his country. On Twitter, the Harry Potter author posted the below message in which she tried to...

www.yahoo.com

buffnut453 · Mar 25, 2022

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
So now the west is trying to "cancel Russia"…

The irony is deafening since Russia is trying to cancel Ukraine...by bombing it back to the dark ages.

Thumpalumpacus · Mar 25, 2022

buffnut453 said:
The irony is deafening since Russia is trying to cancel Ukraine...by bombing it back to the dark ages.

... and cancelling dissent inside Russia by throwing them into jail, or assassinating them with novichok in UK and other places.

This is clearly a regime devoted to the free exchange of ideas.

buffnut453 · Mar 25, 2022

GrauGeist said:
As mentioned before, a declared "no-fly" zone would have to be established by non-NATO nations with no skin in the game.
The no fly areas would be clearly indicated and provided to Ukraine and Russia with the understanding of zero-tolerance for incursions and/or "mistakes".

Many nations capable of the mission and plenty of neutral sites to base out of.

So it is entirely possible.

I wonder if the Aussies could play a lead role in a non-NATO no-fly zone? They have AWACS capability, which will be critical, and are a modern, well-equipped (albeit small) military. However, they could be the nucleus around which other nations could get involved.

buffnut453 · Mar 25, 2022

Thumpalumpacus said:
... and cancelling dissent inside Russia by throwing them into jail, or assassinating them with novichok in UK and other places.

This is clearly a regime devoted to the free exchange of ideas. View attachment 662528

Yes...free exchange of Putin's ideas. But nobody else's.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Mar 25, 2022

buffnut453 said:
The irony is deafening since Russia is trying to cancel Ukraine...by bombing it back to the dark ages.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Mar 25, 2022

buffnut453 said:
I wonder if the Aussies could play a lead role in a non-NATO no-fly zone? They have AWACS capability, which will be critical, and are a modern, well-equipped (albeit small) military. However, they could be the nucleus around which other nations could get involved.

I don't think that would work because of their close ties to NATO and the west. Australia is a close ally, and most certainly would stand with NATO.

buffnut453 · Mar 25, 2022

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
I don't think that would work because of their close ties to NATO and the west. Australia is a close ally, and most certainly would stand with NATO.

I know...but they aren't NATO. I picked on them because, frankly, nobody else out there has the capability to enforce a no-fly zone. There aren't many nations with AWACS capabilities and the Aussies are the only ones I can think of outside NATO. The only other one, who both sides might trust, would be Israel but I don't see Tel Aviv allowing its forces to deploy to Ukraine as that might open the door for hostile action by Iran and others.

vikingBerserker · Mar 25, 2022

We could try the Irish, but they'll end up fighting everybody.

buffnut453 · Mar 25, 2022

vikingBerserker said:
We could try the Irish, but they'll end up fighting everybody.

Including themselves.

Then again, copious quantities of Guinness and Irish whiskey can be good for negotiations.

wlewisiii · Mar 25, 2022

buffnut453 said:
Including themselves.

Then again, copious quantities of Guinness and Irish whiskey can be good for negotiations.

Oh, hell yeah, haven't been in a good bar fight since I was stationed in Germany.

FLYBOYJ · Mar 25, 2022

Marcel · Mar 25, 2022

FLYBOYJ said:
View attachment 662533

The Volvo is indeed a tank.

Dimlee · Mar 25, 2022

Thumpalumpacus said:
My understanding is that Russian coms were reliant upon encrypted satellite phone links which have been shattered by air assault in-country, meaning the Russians are actually using civilian cell networks and the Ukrainians are using that info to target.

Actually, it's even more bizarre. Russian encrypted comms system "Era" was reliant on the ground cellular network. But at the same time, some RF units were given orders to destroy cellular towers in Ukraine in the first days of the invasion.

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