"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (5 Viewers)

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Marcel said:
That's a very naive statement. Your country is doing a Neville Chamberlain's "peace for our time". We, Europeans still know what that will lead to, maybe you don't? Next to that, your highest-in-charge is blindly following Russian propaganda, already twisting the facts about who started the war. Doing peace talks without the important players like theUkraine and Europe is also a stab in the back.

Your "pragmatic" approach is plain treason. So yeah, people start "handwringing" because of it.

I should really shut up here. As an admin I should not get into these discussions. I now really need to remove me from this thread, as I cannot be impartial in this.
Click to expand...
How can anyone with a morsel of moral intelligence stay impartial? The rules applied to this thread make meaningful discourse regarding discussion of either the lessons of history or the transparent ideology behind the betrayal of Ukraine either impossible or pointlessly trite, so you're not alone. How can anyone intelligently discuss the conduct of a war without including its politics, when history shows they are lost and won by the actions, policies, words and commands of politicians and demagogues?

Hey ho. Back to threads about model planes for me.

:confused:
 
True then (~1832), true now:

24. WAR IS A MERE CONTINUATION OF POLICY BY OTHER MEANS.
We see, therefore, that War is not merely a political act, but also a real political instrument, a continuation of political commerce, a carrying out of the same by other means. All beyond this which is strictly peculiar to War relates merely to the peculiar nature of the means which it uses. That the tendencies and views of policy shall not be incompatible with these means, the Art of War in general and the Commander in each particular case may demand, and this claim is truly not a trifling one. But however powerfully this may react on political views in particular cases, still it must always be regarded as only a modification of them; for the political view is the object, War is the means, and the means must always include the object in our conception.


Yes, it's trite and cliche to quote von Clausewitz here. But, I think it's important to state that I believe the international political context of this war should be discussed here. I think that with a little restraint and judicial self-censorship, we can discuss the realpolitik and the diplomatic intrigues that are involved in the Ukraine-Russia-US-EU relationship.

How US decisions are impacting the great alliance of the last 80 years, or what the implications are for Ukraine if the EU has to go it alone to support the war are important topics and pretty fundamental to the wider context of the day-to-day nitty gritty of the conflict itself.

What needs to be avoided (probably through gritted teeth) is any discussion of the ideological or moral politics of the situation - not because doing so is inherently bad, but because A) It's not that sort of forum, and B) Such discussions almost always end up with the most extreme voices also becoming the loudest and driving the discussions into an in-group/out-group dynamic that is neither productive nor healthy [particularly, it seems, when it concerns US domestic politics].



Anyway, just my 0.02c.
 
Jabberwocky said:
What needs to be avoided (probably through gritted teeth) is any discussion of the ideological or moral politics of the situation - not because doing so is inherently bad, but because A) It's not that sort of forum, and B) Such discussions almost always end up with the most extreme voices also becoming the loudest and driving the discussions into an in-group/out-group dynamic that is neither productive nor healthy [particularly, it seems, when it concerns US domestic politics].
Click to expand...

And that is the type of political discussion not allowed here.

Three years ago we relaxed the politics rule because of this thread.
 
About nuclear deterrence in Europe

www.twz.com

France Eyeing Deployment Of Nuclear-Armed Rafale Fighters To Germany: Report

Amid concerns over U.S. commitment to European security, France is mulling the extension of its nuclear umbrella farther across Europe. The latest proposal reportedly involves the deployment of nuclear-armed French fighter jets in Germany.
www.twz.com www.twz.com
 
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