"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (26 Viewers)

[Thumpalumpacus]

I wonder what model of transport aircraft the Ukrainians downed on those first days. If it had several hundred men on board as claimed it would need to be big. I haven't heard of any evidence of a major crash site in Ukraine.

Here's one of the reports I read:


Two Ilyushin Il-76 transport aircraft belonging to Russian military were shot down by Ukrainian forces south of Kyiv, reports confirm.
The Ukrainian military announced that it shot down two heavy transporters with airborne troops on February 26, 2022. However, the claims were difficult to verify due to the ongoing situation in Ukraine's capital.
Later in the day, Associated Press reported that the first aircraft went down near Vasylkiv, approximately 40 kilometers (25 miles) south of Kyiv, and the second crashed near Bila Tserkva, 85 kilometers (50 miles) south of the capital.
According to AP, two American officials close to the matter verified the claims.
Numerous NATO airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft and drones have been a constant presence in the skies just west of Ukraine and above the Black sea, monitoring the situation over the war-torn country.

Two Russian Il-76 transport planes shot down over Kyiv – reports - AeroTime

Two Ilyushin Il-76 transport aircraft belonging to Russian military were shot down by Ukrainian forces south of Kyiv, reports confirm. The Ukrainian military announced that it shot down two heavy transporters with airborne troops on February 26, 2022. However, the claims were difficult to verify...

www.aerotime.aero

If those planes were loaded with troops, "hundreds" could well have been killed. They're roughly the equivalent of the C-141 and can probably carry 100-150 combat-loaded troops, so if two were indeed shot down, "hundreds killed" could be accurate.

 

[gumbyk]

They're roughly the equivalent of the C-141 and can probably carry 100-150 combat-loaded troops,

or 2-300 Russian conscripts...

 

[buffnut453]

Depends as to what you would like to call or refer to a tracked vehicle weighing 48t and able to dispense (660) APDS tungsten rounds in rapid fire succession via 2x35mm cannons that
can easily destroy/disable a T-62 to T-72 tank. It's not necessary to "only" use the Flakpanzer Gepard in the AA role.
It was designed to accompany armored units onto the battlefield - to provide AA cover with 620 rounds and additionally fitted with (40) anti-tank rounds for self-defense against AFV's and MBT's.

It's armoured, tracked AAA. It may be able to disable another MBT but to destroy it would take an incredible amount of luck. I can see it having a role against AFVs but I don't see it knocking out tanks...except, perhaps, achieving an M-kill. It isn't a tank, though.

 

[Admiral Beez]

It's armoured, tracked AAA. It may be able to disable another MBT but to destroy it would take an incredible amount of luck.

IIRC the original Leopard I upon which the Gepard was based was very poorly armoured.

 

[buffnut453]

IIRC the original Leopard I upon which the Gepard was based was very poorly armoured.

Yes, the Leo 1 was very light for a MBT. The early Challenger and M1 Abrams had over 50% greater mass than the Leo 1, while the latest M1 variants are gusting close to 75% greater mass.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Yes, the Leo 1 was very light for a MBT. The early Challenger and M1 Abrams had over 50% greater mass than the Leo 1, while the latest M1 variants are gusting close to 75% greater mass.

I believe in the era of HEAT and APDS rounds and before Chobham and explosive reactive armour (ERA) the assumption was that nothing could prevent penetration. In this mindset the 70s tanks like the Leopard and AMX-30 were thinly skinned against only light guns. Many NATO MBTs of the 1960s and 70s were like battlecruisers, fast, agile, able to dish it out but not able to take it, Chieftain aside of course.

I'm sure the Ukrainians would do well with Leopards, but they'd prefer Chieftains. Here's some for sale.

Chieftain Tank For Sale POA (FV4201) They are in various conditions, from non runner to runner with activated main gun.

We have x4 Chieftain Tank for sale POA (FV4201). They are in various conditions, from non runner to runner with activated main gun.

tanks-alot.co.uk

 

[fubar57]

or 2-300 Russian conscripts...

Still using it old school

 

[vikingBerserker]

I swear alcohol had to be involved

 

[buffnut453]

More explosions in Belgorod, this time at an ammo depot:

Multiple explosions have been heard in the Russian city of Belgorod, about 40km (24 miles) north of the Ukrainian border, according to a local official.

On social media app Telegram, regional governor Vyacheslav Gladkov said he was woken at around 03:35 on Wednesday by the sound of an explosion.

He said that while drafting his social media post he heard another three loud booms.

Gladkov later said preliminary reports indicated an ammunition depot was on fire in a rural settlement, and "no casualties among the civilian population" had been reported.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

It's armoured, tracked AAA. It may be able to disable another MBT but to destroy it would take an incredible amount of luck. I can see it having a role against AFVs but I don't see it knocking out tanks...except, perhaps, achieving an M-kill. It isn't a tank, though.

If you're using it against MBTs you're probably losing the battle already.

 

[fubar57]

More explosions in Belgorod, this time at an ammo depot:

Multiple explosions have been heard in the Russian city of Belgorod, about 40km (24 miles) north of the Ukrainian border, according to a local official.

On social media app Telegram, regional governor Vyacheslav Gladkov said he was woken at around 03:35 on Wednesday by the sound of an explosion.

He said that while drafting his social media post he heard another three loud booms.

Gladkov later said preliminary reports indicated an ammunition depot was on fire in a rural settlement, and "no casualties among the civilian population" had been reported.

 

[MiTasol]

Just my two pennies, but enough with these gotcha moment fails.

India's aid to Ukraine

India's second tranche of humanitarian aid to Ukraine arrives in Romania by IAF flight | India News - Times of India

India News: BUCHAREST: India's second tranche of humanitarian aid to Ukraine arrived in Romania by IAF flight on Wednesday and will be further transported to war-.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

China's aid to Ukraine

China says it will offer 10 million yuan more of humanitarian aid to Ukraine

The Chinese Red Cross will offer an additional 10 million yuan ($1.57 million) of humanitarian assistance to Ukraine, Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Wang Wenbin told reporters on Monday.

www.reuters.com

Aid to Ukraine needn't always be weapons, but any aid that helps keep Ukrainians healthy and fed contributes to the nation's combat capability.


Africa aside, most of the world is in. List of foreign aid to Ukraine during the Russo-Ukrainian War - Wikipedia

I stand corrected.

Thank you

 

[Greg Boeser]

It's armoured, tracked AAA. It may be able to disable another MBT but to destroy it would take an incredible amount of luck. I can see it having a role against AFVs but I don't see it knocking out tanks...except, perhaps, achieving an M-kill. It isn't a tank, though.

https://img.ifunny.co/images/05e11319e146419e59a8e1f07bd5709abb08971b27b37a90da621ea6f6220140_1.webp

 

[buffnut453]

If you're using it against MBTs you're probably losing the battle already.

But take the turret off the hull, stick it onto a mechanized quadrupedal battle walker and it'd make a great AT-AT. Compare the two and see if you agree:

AT-AT Walker:

Gepard Turret:

 

[SaparotRob]

Egads! You're right.

 

[Jagdflieger]

It's armoured, tracked AAA. It may be able to disable another MBT but to destroy it would take an incredible amount of luck. I can see it having a role against AFVs but I don't see it knocking out tanks...except, perhaps, achieving an M-kill. It isn't a tank, though.

In German it is called rightfully a Panzer (tank) it is not termed Kampfpanzer (MBT). It isn't build to act as an AFV or MBT but it is able to defend itself, destroy/disable AFV's and MBT's such as in the latter case a T-54/T-62 right up to a T-72. If a Gepard is integrated into a defensive or obstructing position it could and would create havoc towards any soft target, AFV and if neccessary even an MBT.
Just as an A-10 with it's 30mm (uranium depleted) API can obliterate a T-72 - so can a Gepard with it's 35mm (tungsten core) API

 

[buffnut453]

In German it is called rightfully a Panzer (tank) it is not termed Kampfpanzer (MBT). It isn't build to act as an AFV or MBT but it is able to defend itself, destroy/disable AFV's and MBT's such as in the latter case a T-54/T-62 right up to a T-72. If a Gepard is integrated into a defensive or obstructing position it could and would create havoc towards any soft target, AFV and if neccessary even an MBT.
Just as an A-10 with it's 30mm (uranium depleted) API can obliterate a T-72 - so can a Gepard with it's 35mm (tungsten core) API

I can buy the ability of the Gepard to shred soft vehicles and AFVs but I still say taking out a tank would require a lucky hit in a poorly defended area (e.g engine compartment, attacking from the rear).

Your statement about the A-10 isn't actually correct. Trials of A-10s going against MBTs showed that the results really weren't that great. The one thing the A-10 has going for it is that it pumps a lot of rounds downrange very quickly (muzzle velocity is well over twice that of the Gepard), which means an initial round that creates some damage may be followed by a second or third round that can at least disable the tank. I wouldn't bet on the Gepard, shooting just 40 rounds at less than half the muzzle velocity of the A-10, shredding any T-72 that's coming towards your position...again, from the rear is a different story, but against the main armour I just don't buy it.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Just as an A-10 with it's 30mm (uranium depleted) API can obliterate a T-72 - so can a Gepard with it's 35mm (tungsten core) API

An A-10's 30-mike is coming in against top armor, whereas the flakpanzer's 35mm is coming in horizontally.

 

[Jagdflieger]

I can buy the ability of the Gepard to shred soft vehicles and AFVs but I still say taking out a tank would require a lucky hit in a poorly defended area (e.g engine compartment, attacking from the rear).

Your statement about the A-10 isn't actually correct. Trials of A-10s going against MBTs showed that the results really weren't that great. The one thing the A-10 has going for it is that it pumps a lot of rounds downrange very quickly (muzzle velocity is well over twice that of the Gepard), which means an initial round that creates some damage may be followed by a second or third round that can at least disable the tank. I wouldn't bet on the Gepard, shooting just 40 rounds at less than half the muzzle velocity of the A-10, shredding any T-72 that's coming towards your position...again, from the rear is a different story, but against the main armour I just don't buy it.

The tactical implementation (including range) of an A-10 from the air is totally different then that of a Gepard on the ground. Therefore the amount of ammo spend by an A-10 to conceive actual hits is already 30-50times higher then that of a Gepard.
If you have been to NATO training grounds then you would be able to see what 4-6, 35mm tungsten API will do to a T-62, between 1000-1500m, not even to mention 20-40 hits. (total overkill). The unit I served in was heavily integrated with Gepard's so we got to see quite a lot of action by this "beast".

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The tactical implementation (including range) of an A-10 from the air is totally different then that of a Gepard on the ground. Therefore the amount of ammo spend by an A-10 to conceive actual hits is already 30-50times higher then that of a Gepard.
If you have been to NATO training grounds then you would be able to see what 4-6, 35mm tungsten API will do to a T-62, between 1000-1500m, not even to mention 20-40 hits. (total overkill). The unit I served in was heavily integrated with Gepard's so we got to see quite a lot of action by this "beast".

Frontal armor on an MBT, though? I'm skeptical too. I can see a mobility kill. or a side or rear kill -- but like I wrote earlier, if you're using 'em to fight MBTs at all you've probably already lost the battle.

To track back on topic some, it's been mentioned upthread about training requirements for armored vehicles. so no matter the qualities of the Gephard it will take some time to show its effect. No doubt it will be good to defend against Frogfoot/helo attacks.