Admiral Beez
Major
An interesting thread on the T-62.
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One advantage of the T-62 is the lack of the T-72's auto loader and carrousel of ammunition under floor ready to pop off the turret. Though the Russians will have a marked deficit in trained MBT loaders, having not needed them for decades.The T-62M is not a modern tank by any means, and it is inferior to even the base level T-72As.
There is no possibility of war with NATO unless Russia starts it. That's one advantage Russia has, they can focus all their weaponry at Ukraine without any risk that their under-defended flanks are at risk.this way the Russians can maintain their latest stuff for the possibility of war with the US/NATO,
No, please see below:Hey Jagdflieger,
Did you mean the Alma Ata Protocols?....
nope - ammunition in T-62 is stored in unprotected bins on the sides of turret and hull, there is no advantage over T-72 clones in the crew safety area - difference will be 4 killed instead 3 after armour penetration. Significant difference is in armour protection level - T62 is protected with solid steel walls without any composite inserts like T72 clones has (at least from front side) it means all ukrainian's AT means most probable will work from any possible attack direction.One advantage of the T-62 is the lack of the T-72's auto loader and carrousel of ammunition under floor ready to pop off the turret. Though the Russians will have a marked deficit in trained MBT loaders, having not needed them for decades.
No, please see below:
Maybe different print medias different names/titles – but it is known and also termed as Declaration – see your own forwarded link and cited below.
The founding members of CIF were, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine on 8th December 1991 (The Minsk Declaration and Agreement) and invited other known countries on 21.December 1991. The signatories of the CIF on 21.12.1911 (including Ukraine) guaranteed towards the territorial integrity and the inviolability of existing borders and neutrality within the Commonwealth right down to a joint command of the military. – see below.
The first major issue was already before 2010. After becoming president in 2010, Viktor Yanukovych amended Ukraine's foreign policy doctrine, removing a clause about Ukraine's NATO membership aspirations. Therefore Ukraine's former government had already rejected/abandoned its commitment to maintain neutrality – a clear breach of the Alma Ata Declaration by Ukraine (Article 6) having occurred already before 2010.
As such and most likely, Putin sees himself free to support separatist movements in Donbass and Luhansk and to occupy Crimea in 2014. Ukraine retracting its membership to the CIF in 2018 whilst maintaining and vastly increasing its relationship with NATO…..well….24th February 2022.
TEXT OF ALMA ATA DECLARATION - I.L.M. Page 148
(Declaring: Cooperation among parties of the Commonwealth of Independent States based upon the principle of equality; unified command of military forces and joint control over nuclear weapons; extinction of the U.S.S.R.)Done at Alma Ata on 21 December 1991
Joint command of the military and nuclear weapons; social security of soldiers, assigning command of the armed forces to Marshal E.I. Shaposhnikov.
The High Contracting Parties acknowledge and respect each other's territorial integrity and the inviolability of existing borders within the Commonwealth.
The Parties will respect each other's efforts to achieve the status of a nuclear-free zone and a neutral State.
The States members of the Commonwealth will maintain, and retain under joint command, a common military and strategic space
As I had mentioned earlier, Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia were never CIS members and as such, free to decide onto whatever.
And thanks for the link, better then the excerpt I had.
What are your thoughts on the loader position? The Russians will need to find a fourth man. It takes time to train that chap well, and the T-62's single piece ammunition isn't a lightweight. Perhaps they'll follow the original T-34 design and make the commander also the loader?...difference will be 4 killed instead 3 after armour penetration.
it has nothing common with ergonomy for sure, in reality only 4 rounds located on the wall of turret are within reach, remaining ammunition is close to impossible to use in quick manner, stated theoretical fire rate for this tank is 4 rounds per minute but i think it is limited only to first 4 shoots after this it will be hopelessly slow, and you are right 115mm round is bloody heavy especially for the cramped tank interrior manipulation. I think this features of T62 were main reason why Soviets have push with autoloader designWhat are your thoughts on the loader position? The Russians will need to find a fourth man. It takes time to train that chap well, and the T-62's single piece ammunition isn't a lightweight. Perhaps they'll follow the original T-34 design and make the commander also the loader?
If crew ergos are a factor perhaps the Russians need to bring some of their casemate AFVs out of storage. The SU-100 is still operational in some countries.115mm round is bloody heavy especially for the cramped tank interrior manipulation.
No problem,Hey Jagdflieger.
My apologies, I missed the usage of the term Declaration.
P.S. I made two typos in my post#6,924 - the 5s should have been 6s. Made the correction.
P.S.S. My point is that Ukraine never ratified the Charter, including the joint military part of it. They did ratify some of the other Articles.
crew ergonomy is one of key factors for tank combat effectiveness. And yes that was my thought - what will be next after T62, Su100 seems to equally "good" steel grave for its crew...If crew ergos are a factor perhaps the Russians need to bring some of their casemate AFVs out of storage. The SU-100 is still operational in some countries.
View attachment 670725
Alma Ata Declaration (1991) :No, please see below:
Maybe different print medias different names/titles – but it is known and also termed as Declaration – see your own forwarded link and cited below.
The founding members of CIF were, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine on 8th December 1991 (The Minsk Declaration and Agreement) and invited other known countries on 21.December 1991. The signatories of the CIF on 21.12.1911 (including Ukraine) guaranteed towards the territorial integrity and the inviolability of existing borders and neutrality within the Commonwealth right down to a joint command of the military. – see below.
The first major issue was already before 2010. After becoming president in 2010, Viktor Yanukovych amended Ukraine's foreign policy doctrine, removing a clause about Ukraine's NATO membership aspirations. Therefore Ukraine's former government had already rejected/abandoned its commitment to maintain neutrality – a clear breach of the Alma Ata Declaration by Ukraine (Article 6) having occurred already before 2010.
As such and most likely, Putin sees himself free to support separatist movements in Donbass and Luhansk and to occupy Crimea in 2014. Ukraine retracting its membership to the CIF in 2018 whilst maintaining and vastly increasing its relationship with NATO…..well….24th February 2022.
TEXT OF ALMA ATA DECLARATION - I.L.M. Page 148
(Declaring: Cooperation among parties of the Commonwealth of Independent States based upon the principle of equality; unified command of military forces and joint control over nuclear weapons; extinction of the U.S.S.R.)Done at Alma Ata on 21 December 1991
Joint command of the military and nuclear weapons; social security of soldiers, assigning command of the armed forces to Marshal E.I. Shaposhnikov.
The High Contracting Parties acknowledge and respect each other's territorial integrity and the inviolability of existing borders within the Commonwealth.
The Parties will respect each other's efforts to achieve the status of a nuclear-free zone and a neutral State.
The States members of the Commonwealth will maintain, and retain under joint command, a common military and strategic space
As I had mentioned earlier, Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia were never CIS members and as such, free to decide onto whatever.
And thanks for the link, better then the excerpt I had.
If one of the signatories such as the Ukraine forms a policy doctrine in 2006 which beholds a clause - namely the aspiration to join NATO - then this is a breach towards the neutrality actI know you're trying to put forward Putin's perspective here but the simple fact that the Alma-Ata Protocols involved join command of military forces clearly means that the CIS members were far from being neutral.
In the meantime, they just adopted the amendments to the military service law raising the maximum age of the "contracted" military personnel from 40 to 65 y.o.Some more info about the claimed Botashev shoot down. If this is accurate, he seems to have been a pretty dangerous operator (and not in a good way). The possibility of mercenary pilots of the Wagner Group is also interesting, not least because any combat aircraft they fly can only come from the Russian military:
63-Year-Old Retired Russian Fighter Pilot Shot Down In Su-25 Over Ukraine
Like Top Gun's Pete "Maverick" Mitchell, retired Russian Maj. Gen. Kanamat Botashev was a hot dog who broke the rules.www.thedrive.com
In the meantime, they just adopted the amendments to the military service law raising the maximum age of the "contracted" military personnel from 40 to 65 y.o.