Admiral Beez
Captain
An interesting thread on the T-62.
"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (2 Viewers)
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Admiral Beez
Captain
One advantage of the T-62 is the lack of the T-72's auto loader and carrousel of ammunition under floor ready to pop off the turret. Though the Russians will have a marked deficit in trained MBT loaders, having not needed them for decades.
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buffnut453
Captain
Some more info about the claimed Botashev shoot down. If this is accurate, he seems to have been a pretty dangerous operator (and not in a good way). The possibility of mercenary pilots of the Wagner Group is also interesting, not least because any combat aircraft they fly can only come from the Russian military:
www.thedrive.com
63-Year-Old Retired Russian Fighter Pilot Shot Down In Su-25 Over Ukraine
Like Top Gun's Pete "Maverick" Mitchell, retired Russian Maj. Gen. Kanamat Botashev was a hot dog who broke the rules.
www.thedrive.com
ThomasP
Senior Master Sergeant
Hey Jagdflieger,
Did you mean the Alma Ata Protocols? (The Alma Ata Declaration is a WHO sponsored agreement "reaffirming health as a state of being that means more than just not being sick. It identifies socioeconomic inequities as a cause of poor health, gives states responsibility for the health of their citizens, re-commits to health as a right and, finally, commits to first-level, frontline health care as the key to achieving health for all."
The Alma Ata Protocols were a voluntary agreement between the form USSR states. Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Mongolia, Turkmenistan, and Georgia, refused to join in 1991.
Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia never joined.
Mongolia has Observer status.
Turkmenistan became an Associate Member in 2005.
Georgia subsequently became a Full Member in 1993.
Ukraine signed the original letter of intent to join, but chose subsequently not to ratify the Charter, instead becoming an Associate Member in 1994. However, they did become signatory to some of the Articles in the original CIS Charter.
Georgia is the only full member to leave the Commonwealth of Independent States, doing so in 2008 after fellow CIS member Russia invaded.
Ukraine formally withdrew from its Associate Membership in 2018 as a reaction to fellow CIS member Russia's invasion of the Donbass territory. Due to the recent invasion of Ukraine, the Ukraine government is in the formal process of de-ratifying some of the Articles.
Note that only Article#6 in the Alma Ata Protocols speaks to the members maintaining a neutral status, and that only applies to Nuclear Weapons.
Below is a copy of the original CIS Charter. Pay particular notice to Articles 2, 3, 6, 8, and 10 of the Agreement/Protocols.
Edit: Made two typos, the 5s should have been 6s. Made the correction.
Did you mean the Alma Ata Protocols? (The Alma Ata Declaration is a WHO sponsored agreement "reaffirming health as a state of being that means more than just not being sick. It identifies socioeconomic inequities as a cause of poor health, gives states responsibility for the health of their citizens, re-commits to health as a right and, finally, commits to first-level, frontline health care as the key to achieving health for all."
The Alma Ata Protocols were a voluntary agreement between the form USSR states. Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Mongolia, Turkmenistan, and Georgia, refused to join in 1991.
Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia never joined.
Mongolia has Observer status.
Turkmenistan became an Associate Member in 2005.
Georgia subsequently became a Full Member in 1993.
Ukraine signed the original letter of intent to join, but chose subsequently not to ratify the Charter, instead becoming an Associate Member in 1994. However, they did become signatory to some of the Articles in the original CIS Charter.
Georgia is the only full member to leave the Commonwealth of Independent States, doing so in 2008 after fellow CIS member Russia invaded.
Ukraine formally withdrew from its Associate Membership in 2018 as a reaction to fellow CIS member Russia's invasion of the Donbass territory. Due to the recent invasion of Ukraine, the Ukraine government is in the formal process of de-ratifying some of the Articles.
Note that only Article#6 in the Alma Ata Protocols speaks to the members maintaining a neutral status, and that only applies to Nuclear Weapons.
Below is a copy of the original CIS Charter. Pay particular notice to Articles 2, 3, 6, 8, and 10 of the Agreement/Protocols.
Edit: Made two typos, the 5s should have been 6s. Made the correction.
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ThomasP
Senior Master Sergeant
re the T-62s being brought up:
IMO if the Russians are smart they will send in their older tanks instead of their best front line stuff. If it is as it appears (ie that even the latest Russian tanks are very vulnerable to the current MANPATS) then a T-62M will do the job just as well as a T-72M - at least in terms of protecting the crew. Plus this way the Russians can maintain their latest stuff for the possibility of war with the US/NATO, and/or prepare them for a full scale war with Ukraine and subsequent invasion with greater force than they have used so far.
IMO if the Russians are smart they will send in their older tanks instead of their best front line stuff. If it is as it appears (ie that even the latest Russian tanks are very vulnerable to the current MANPATS) then a T-62M will do the job just as well as a T-72M - at least in terms of protecting the crew. Plus this way the Russians can maintain their latest stuff for the possibility of war with the US/NATO, and/or prepare them for a full scale war with Ukraine and subsequent invasion with greater force than they have used so far.
Admiral Beez
Captain
There is no possibility of war with NATO unless Russia starts it. That's one advantage Russia has, they can focus all their weaponry at Ukraine without any risk that their under-defended flanks are at risk.
Jagdflieger
Senior Airman
- 580
- Mar 23, 2022
No, please see below:
Maybe different print medias different names/titles – but it is known and also termed as Declaration – see your own forwarded link and cited below.
The founding members of CIF were, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine on 8th December 1991 (The Minsk Declaration and Agreement) and invited other known countries on 21.December 1991. The signatories of the CIF on 21.12.1911 (including Ukraine) guaranteed towards the territorial integrity and the inviolability of existing borders and neutrality within the Commonwealth right down to a joint command of the military. – see below.
The first major issue was already before 2010. After becoming president in 2010, Viktor Yanukovych amended Ukraine's foreign policy doctrine, removing a clause about Ukraine's NATO membership aspirations. Therefore Ukraine's former government had already rejected/abandoned its commitment to maintain neutrality – a clear breach of the Alma Ata Declaration by Ukraine (Article 6) having occurred already before 2010.
As such and most likely, Putin sees himself free to support separatist movements in Donbass and Luhansk and to occupy Crimea in 2014. Ukraine retracting its membership to the CIF in 2018 whilst maintaining and vastly increasing its relationship with NATO…..well….24th February 2022.
TEXT OF ALMA ATA DECLARATION - I.L.M. Page 148
(Declaring: Cooperation among parties of the Commonwealth of Independent States based upon the principle of equality; unified command of military forces and joint control over nuclear weapons; extinction of the U.S.S.R.)Done at Alma Ata on 21 December 1991
Joint command of the military and nuclear weapons; social security of soldiers, assigning command of the armed forces to Marshal E.I. Shaposhnikov.
The High Contracting Parties acknowledge and respect each other's territorial integrity and the inviolability of existing borders within the Commonwealth.
The Parties will respect each other's efforts to achieve the status of a nuclear-free zone and a neutral State.
The States members of the Commonwealth will maintain, and retain under joint command, a common military and strategic space
As I had mentioned earlier, Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia were never CIS members and as such, free to decide onto whatever.
And thanks for the link, better then the excerpt I had.
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ThomasP
Senior Master Sergeant
Hey Jagdflieger.
My apologies, I missed the usage of the term Declaration.
P.S. I made two typos in my post#6,924 - the 5s should have been 6s. Made the correction.
P.S.S. My point is that Ukraine never ratified the Charter, including the joint military part of it. They did ratify some of the other Articles.
My apologies, I missed the usage of the term Declaration.
P.S. I made two typos in my post#6,924 - the 5s should have been 6s. Made the correction.
P.S.S. My point is that Ukraine never ratified the Charter, including the joint military part of it. They did ratify some of the other Articles.
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nope - ammunition in T-62 is stored in unprotected bins on the sides of turret and hull, there is no advantage over T-72 clones in the crew safety area - difference will be 4 killed instead 3 after armour penetration. Significant difference is in armour protection level - T62 is protected with solid steel walls without any composite inserts like T72 clones has (at least from front side) it means all ukrainian's AT means most probable will work from any possible attack direction.
buffnut453
Captain
I know you're trying to put forward Putin's perspective here but the simple fact that the Alma-Ata Protocols involved join command of military forces clearly means that the CIS members were far from being neutral.
Likewise, Putin literally tore up the Protocols by his actions to grab portions of CIS member national territory for Russia. Existing borders are either inviolable or they're not. Again, there is zero justification for what Putin is doing, other than the whiny-bitch "You're not doing what I want you to do so I'm going to throw my toys out of the cot." Sadly, his "toys" involve throwing the Russian military against civilian targets in Ukraine.
buffnut453
Captain
Interesting article about ongoing efforts to recover bodies of Russian soldiers in Ukraine:
www.bbc.com
Ukraine war: Bodies of dead Russian soldiers abandoned near Kyiv
Shallow graves are discovered on the outskirts of the capital, weeks after Russia's attempted advance.
www.bbc.com
Admiral Beez
Captain
What are your thoughts on the loader position? The Russians will need to find a fourth man. It takes time to train that chap well, and the T-62's single piece ammunition isn't a lightweight. Perhaps they'll follow the original T-34 design and make the commander also the loader?
it has nothing common with ergonomy for sure, in reality only 4 rounds located on the wall of turret are within reach, remaining ammunition is close to impossible to use in quick manner, stated theoretical fire rate for this tank is 4 rounds per minute but i think it is limited only to first 4 shoots after this it will be hopelessly slow, and you are right 115mm round is bloody heavy especially for the cramped tank interrior manipulation. I think this features of T62 were main reason why Soviets have push with autoloader design
Admiral Beez
Captain
If crew ergos are a factor perhaps the Russians need to bring some of their casemate AFVs out of storage. The SU-100 is still operational in some countries.
Jagdflieger
Senior Airman
- 580
- Mar 23, 2022
No problem,
What makes you say that Ukraine did not sign on 8th of December 1991? the only one who did not sign, but did so in 1993, was Georgia.
Resources for The creation of the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) - Geopolitical upheavals in Europe after 1989 - CVCE Website
This subject file looks at the events that marked the end of the 20th century in Europe. The fall of the Berlin Wall and the implosion of the Soviet Union put an end to the Cold War and its divisions, which dated back to the Second World War. The political and economic reforms adopted in the...
www.cvce.eu
On 8 December 1991, in Minsk, the Republics of Russia, Belarus and Ukraine sign the Treaty establishing the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS). On 21 December, eight other former Federated Soviet Republics also sign the Treaty of Minsk in Alma-Ata, Kazakhstan, thus joining the founding members of the CIS.
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crew ergonomy is one of key factors for tank combat effectiveness. And yes that was my thought - what will be next after T62, Su100 seems to equally "good" steel grave for its crew...
Alma Ata Declaration (1991) :
Did not request to maintain the neutrality of the countries involved.
Did not create the Joint Command of the military forces of the countries involved.
Declared that the aspirations toward the neutral and non-nuclear status will be respected. ("Neutrality" was mentioned just once and only within this context).
Declared that Joint Command of the strategic (read - nuclear) forces is retained and that joint control on nuclear weapons is retained.
This is the official text of the Declaration published from the CIS registry:
Идет перенаправление...
Conclusions:
1. Your interpretation of the Declaration is incorrect.
2. Your accusations about Ukraine breaking any obligations are unfounded.
Jagdflieger
Senior Airman
- 580
- Mar 23, 2022
If one of the signatories such as the Ukraine forms a policy doctrine in 2006 which beholds a clause - namely the aspiration to join NATO - then this is a breach towards the neutrality act
regarding the CIS members and its signatories. Which in this case beholds not just a breach towards Russia but also Belarus and the remaining CIS members.
Anyway two smart people once said, war is the continuation of diplomacy via other means, and the other one said: diplomacy is the continuation of war by other means
So it is a continuous cycle with varying time lines. Unfortunately the timeline for diplomacy wasn't really pursued by any party.
In the meantime, they just adopted the amendments to the military service law raising the maximum age of the "contracted" military personnel from 40 to 65 y.o.Some more info about the claimed Botashev shoot down. If this is accurate, he seems to have been a pretty dangerous operator (and not in a good way). The possibility of mercenary pilots of the Wagner Group is also interesting, not least because any combat aircraft they fly can only come from the Russian military:
63-Year-Old Retired Russian Fighter Pilot Shot Down In Su-25 Over Ukraine
Like Top Gun's Pete "Maverick" Mitchell, retired Russian Maj. Gen. Kanamat Botashev was a hot dog who broke the rules.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Matching the age of the gear they're using.
