"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (1 Viewer)

[Admiral Beez]

Maybe this one will keep its turret on?

Why did Russia develop a mini-tank that was never subsequently brought into service?

In the early 1960s the Soviet Union developed one of the world's smallest tanks armed with the first missiles.

www.rbth.com

 

[buffnut453]

maybe your analysis is a bit too simple?

1. Putin does not accept Kiev's drive to become a NATO member, and insisted onto it's neutrality, due to the 1991 treaty, that also defines the borders of Ukraine
2. Ukraine annulled the "neutrality clause" in 2010, therefore Putin does not accept it's borders - defined entirely by the Soviet Union and "granted" by Jelzin in 1991 under the pretext of Ukraine being a member of CIS, (Alma-Ata Declaration) Ukraine and Georgia had decided to resign their membership in 2018 respectively Georgia in 2009.
3. Taking the existence of the Baltic republics (never been CIF members) into account and already being NATO members - he certainly doesn't see Finland as an additional threat, but rather as an elongation of an already threatening NATO borderline towards Russia. (aside from one attack under Stalin) - there has never been a war or warlike tensions between Finland and Russia caused by the latter since 1939, and after that till 1944 it was Finland that had allied with the Nazis against Russia. (naturally hoping to regain lost territory).
4. That Putin isn't happy about Finland haven given up on it's neutrality - is understood, and he will also have to take the blame for that in the Duma.

CIS (The CIS Heads of States meeting on 26 August 2005 adopted several resolutions, including one on military cooperation and another on the fight against terrorism).
The CIS Defense Ministers Council met on 20 June 2007 to discuss military cooperation. Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said that the Council had created a specific military cooperation plan through 2010.

So Putin's stance is indeed very simple: if a member breaks the Alma-Ata-Declaration - okay, let's talk about the respective borders of e.g. Ukraine because the one it holds are those
of the Ukraine. And Putin went into action in 2014 e.g. by accepting the "independence declarations" of the Donbass and Luhansk republic and after occupying the Crimea - the Crimea
republic.....and.......

Okay back to war talk and who destroyed how many of what...

My "analysis" (that's a grand term for my spoutings) is undoubtedly too simple. However....

1. Kiev's drive to become a NATO member really started in 2008 so how does that justify an invasion in 2022? How does ANYTHING that Ukraine has done justify an invasion?

2. How did Ukraine annul the neutrality clause in 2010? Even if it did, why did it take 4 years for Russia to initially act, and a further 8 years to invade?

3. Since Ukraine withdrew from the CIS it is no longer subject to its provisos. That would be like saying that the CIS are still subject to the protocols of the USSR.

4. I sense there isn't a lot of blame flowing up to Putin from the Duma. Hagiography and arse-kissing? Yes. Blame and criticism? Not a chance.

 

[Admiral Beez]

My "analysis" (that's a grand term for my spoutings) is undoubtedly too simple. However....

1. Kiev's drive to become a NATO member really started in 2008 so how does that justify an invasion in 2022? How does ANYTHING that Ukraine has done justify an invasion?

In Jan 2010, Putin-puppet Viktor Yanukovych became president of Ukraine and canceled Ukraine's drive for NATO membership. This mollified Putin until Yanukovych was thrown out of power in the 2014 revolution and fled to exile in Russia, leading Putin to seize Crimea. In November 2014 after Russia had seized Crimea, Ukraine's new president, Petro Poroshenko announced that the country is now again pursuing NATO membership. From then on it was only a matter of time before either Ukraine gained NATO membership or they were brought back under Russian control through either regime change in Kyiv or military occupation. The race was on.

You have to like former president Poroshenko. He's not giving Zelensky any trouble, and is a good spokesperson for arms and assistance.

 

[buffnut453]

In Jan 2010, Putin-puppet Viktor Yanukovych became president of Ukraine and canceled Ukraine's drive for NATO membership. This mollified Putin until Yanukovych was thrown out of power in the 2014 revolution and fled to exile in Russia, leading Putin to seize Crimea. In November 2014 after Russia had seized Crimea, Ukraine's new president, Petro Poroshenko announced that the country is now again pursuing NATO membership. From then on it was only a matter of time before either Ukraine gained NATO membership or they were brought back under Russian control through either regime change in Kyiv or military occupation. The race was on.

Yes, but that doesn't explain how Ukraine's actions in 2010 nullified the neutrality clause. If Yanukovych cancelled Ukraine's (then 2-year old) drive for NATO membership, surely that would strengthen Ukraine's neutrality rather than annulling it?

 

[buffnut453]

In other news, Poland has sent a "very large number" of tanks to Ukraine:

Poland has sent a "very large number" of tanks to Ukraine, the Polish President Andrzej Duda says.

During the World Economic Forum in Davos, Duda said the transfer had reduced Poland's defence capabilities.

"We are counting on the support of the community, which is Nato, and we are counting on the support of the USA and also Germany," he said.

In April, Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki admitted for the first time that Poland had sent tanks to Ukraine.

No details have been released, but media reports suggest they have been supplying Soviet-era T-72 tanks.

President Duda said the Polish army was now using a lot of German Leopard 2 tanks.

"If we were supported by our German allies with a batch of tanks that would replace the ones we gave to Ukraine, we would be very grateful. We had such a promise, we hear that Germany is not willing to fulfil this promise, that's a big disappointment for us," he said.

 

[Glider]

I have to say that of all the NATO countries Germany are not doing well

 

[Denniss]

What do the Poles think - Abrakadabra and the Leo2s are in their service?
German armed forces have no spare Leo2 available and those in hands of the industry seem to require reactivation/refurbishment.

BTW in german news are reports that a russian airforce general was shot down in his Su-25 by a Stinger. His name was given as Generalmajor Kanamat Botaschow

 

[Dimlee]

maybe your analysis is a bit too simple?

1. Putin does not accept Kiev's drive to become a NATO member, and insisted onto it's neutrality, due to the 1991 treaty, that also defines the borders of Ukraine
2. Ukraine annulled the "neutrality clause" in 2010, therefore Putin does not accept it's borders - defined entirely by the Soviet Union and "granted" by Jelzin in 1991 under the pretext of Ukraine being a member of CIS, (Alma-Ata Declaration) Ukraine and Georgia had decided to resign their membership in 2018 respectively Georgia in 2009.
3. Taking the existence of the Baltic republics (never been CIF members) into account and already being NATO members - he certainly doesn't see Finland as an additional threat, but rather as an elongation of an already threatening NATO borderline towards Russia. (aside from one attack under Stalin) - there has never been a war or warlike tensions between Finland and Russia caused by the latter since 1939, and after that till 1944 it was Finland that had allied with the Nazis against Russia. (naturally hoping to regain lost territory).
4. That Putin isn't happy about Finland haven given up on it's neutrality - is understood, and he will also have to take the blame for that in the Duma.

CIS (The CIS Heads of States meeting on 26 August 2005 adopted several resolutions, including one on military cooperation and another on the fight against terrorism).
The CIS Defense Ministers Council met on 20 June 2007 to discuss military cooperation. Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said that the Council had created a specific military cooperation plan through 2010.

So Putin's stance is indeed very simple: if a member breaks the Alma-Ata-Declaration - okay, let's talk about the respective borders of e.g. Ukraine because the one it holds are those
of the Ukraine. And Putin went into action in 2014 e.g. by accepting the "independence declarations" of the Donbass and Luhansk republic and after occupying the Crimea - the Crimea
republic.....and.......

Okay back to war talk and who destroyed how many of what...

1. There was no "neutrality" or "border defining" treaty in 1991. Ukraine's borders are the same as that of the Ukrainian SSR.
2. Ukraine did not "annul" anything in 2010. Actually, in 2010, Ukraine prolonged the lease of the Russian base in Sevastopol, as the only exception to the de-facto neutrality status. Yeltsin never granted anything. CIS membership has never been linked to the borders or vice versa.
3. Finland "allied" with Germany against USSR (not only Russia which was represented by RFSFR at that time) after the USSR attacked Finland.
Ukraine did not break the Alma-Ata declaration or any other document of CIS or any treaty with the Russian Federation.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

MANPADS may be designed for surface to air, but plenty of anti-aircraft weapons have proven to be effective against ground targets in the past.

As have plenty of Surface to Surface weapons such as RPGs proven to be effective against aircraft.

 

[Jerad]

Кстати, в немецких новостях сообщают, что генерал ВВС России был сбит на своем Су-25 «Стингером». Его имя было дано как генерал-майор Канамат Боташоу.

Retired Russian Air Force Major General Kanamat Botashev was shot down and killed in the sky over Ukraine. Information about the death of the pilot was confirmed to the BBC by three former subordinates of Botashev, who kept in touch with him after the end of the service. They requested anonymity for personal security reasons.
Kanamat Botashev was born in 1959 in Karachay-Cherkessia, graduated from the Yeysk Higher Military Aviation Institute and qualified as a fighter-bomber. He rose from lieutenant to general.

"СÑингеÑ" на вÑÑоде из аÑаки, взÑÑв в воздÑÑе и⦠ÐÑÑ". РоÑÑийÑкие паблики обÑÑждаÑÑ Ð³Ð¸Ð±ÐµÐ»Ñ Ð»ÐµÑÑика-генеÑала - BBC News Ð ÑÑÑÐºÐ°Ñ ÑлÑжба

Рнебе над УкÑаиной бÑл ÑÐ±Ð¸Ñ Ð¸ погиб генеÑал-Ð¼Ð°Ð¹Ð¾Ñ Ð²Ð¾ÐµÐ½Ð½Ð¾-воздÑÑнÑÑ Ñил РоÑÑии в оÑÑÑавке ÐÐ°Ð½Ð°Ð¼Ð°Ñ ÐоÑаÑев. ÐнÑоÑмаÑÐ¸Ñ Ð¾ гибели леÑÑика подÑвеÑдили Ðи-би-Ñи ÑÑи бÑвÑÐ¸Ñ Ð¿Ð¾Ð´ÑиненнÑÑ...

www.bbc.com

 

[hawkeye2an]

I come back to this thread to see what's up in the Russian-Ukraine war, and all I see are the wilfully Oblivious bickering about the name of Ukraine. The Ukrainians have told us how to refer to their country, the matter is settled. Take it off line to DMs please, no one else caresC.

Couldn't agree more. You expect the media to go somewhere else at this point in the war, but expect more here. The. gyros, fries............

 

[buffnut453]

Retired Russian Air Force Major General Kanamat Botashev was shot down and killed in the sky over Ukraine. Information about the death of the pilot was confirmed to the BBC by three former subordinates of Botashev, who kept in touch with him after the end of the service. They requested anonymity for personal security reasons.
Kanamat Botashev was born in 1959 in Karachay-Cherkessia, graduated from the Yeysk Higher Military Aviation Institute and qualified as a fighter-bomber. He rose from lieutenant to general.

"СÑингеÑ" на вÑÑоде из аÑаки, взÑÑв в воздÑÑе и⦠ÐÑÑ". РоÑÑийÑкие паблики обÑÑждаÑÑ Ð³Ð¸Ð±ÐµÐ»Ñ Ð»ÐµÑÑика-генеÑала - BBC News Ð ÑÑÑÐºÐ°Ñ ÑлÑжба

Рнебе над УкÑаиной бÑл ÑÐ±Ð¸Ñ Ð¸ погиб генеÑал-Ð¼Ð°Ð¹Ð¾Ñ Ð²Ð¾ÐµÐ½Ð½Ð¾-воздÑÑнÑÑ Ñил РоÑÑии в оÑÑÑавке ÐÐ°Ð½Ð°Ð¼Ð°Ñ ÐоÑаÑев. ÐнÑоÑмаÑÐ¸Ñ Ð¾ гибели леÑÑика подÑвеÑдили Ðи-би-Ñи ÑÑи бÑвÑÐ¸Ñ Ð¿Ð¾Ð´ÑиненнÑÑ...

www.bbc.com

I'm confused. If he was retired, why was he flying an Su-25 over Ukraine? If he wasn't retired, why the hell was a Major General flying combat ops?

There's something distinctly hokey about this.

 

[Jabberwocky]

T-62 thing is super interesting. Looks like they might be going for rear areas/security operations use. Russia designated about 900 T-62s as active reserves in the mid 2010s, using T-62Ms that had been modernised in the mid to late 1980s. A bunch of these were then given to Syria between 2017 and 2019 (where they didn't perform particularly well...). The T-62M really only left active Russian service in 2018 - although it had been reduced to 'anti-terrorist' operations by then (read: intimidating Georgians upset at Russia occupying their country).

The T-62M is not a modern tank by any means, and it is inferior to even the base level T-72As. The list of vulnerabilities and flaws is hideous (cramped, poor internal ammunition placement, weird gun reload/depression/traverse issues, terrible sights, rear armour vulnerable to light autocannon). Biggest drawback is that nearly all of the updates lack thermal sights and night vision for the driver. There's a IR system, but that's aparrently useless beyond 250-300m. Which means that they basically can't be used at night.

 

[Crimea_River]

As a Canadian I should know, but I wonder what we did with our Leopard 1s.....

A number are saved for museums and a bunch, if not the rest, were decommissioned and sent to Cold Lake Air Weapons Range for target practice.

Repurposed Leopard 1 tanks invade Vegreville | Globalnews.ca

The central Alberta town has been invaded by a part of Canadian military history.

globalnews.ca

 

[Jerad]

I'm confused. If he was retired, why was he flying an Su-25 over Ukraine? If he wasn't retired, why the hell was a Major General flying combat ops?

There's something distinctly hokey about this.

Сan be
I saw this news in morning, i was not sure "bbc" like source. But Аdvisor-President A.Arestovich confirm this information at 22-00 Kiev.
Although I understand that his words cannot be a 100% guarantee either, but he this boy who values his reputation
Regarding ship General Makarov, he was first say that it was too early to rejoice

 

[SaparotRob]

I'm confused. If he was retired, why was he flying an Su-25 over Ukraine? If he wasn't retired, why the hell was a Major General flying combat ops?

There's something distinctly hokey about this.

Could Putin have been thinning the ranks of less supportive competitors officers all along?

 

[Jagdflieger]

Or they simply leave it un-rebuilt like they did much of East Berlin and East Germany until the East and West reunited.

Oleh Ustenko, an adviser to the Ukrainian president on economic issues, said at a briefing at the Ukraine Media Center:
The total value of direct and indirect losses inflicted by the aggressor on Ukraine has already reached about $1 trillion.

The Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in Ukraine was worth $165 billion US dollars in 2021, according to official data from the World Bank.

 

[Admiral Beez]

What do the Poles think - Abrakadabra and the Leo2s are in their service?
German armed forces have no spare Leo2 available and those in hands of the industry seem to require reactivation/refurbishment.

I think the Poles want the German armoured units, with their crews, rather than to take their tanks away. Besides, the Germans will need them.

MSN

www.msn.com

I do wonder if Canada will be sending a Leo2 armoured regiment to the Baltics to join our IFV equipped force there. If they so, the Germans could redeploy from Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia to Poland.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Oleh Ustenko, an adviser to the Ukrainian president on economic issues, said at a briefing at the Ukraine Media Center:
The total value of direct and indirect losses inflicted by the aggressor on Ukraine has already reached about $1 trillion.

The Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in Ukraine was worth $165 billion US dollars in 2021, according to official data from the World Bank.

Maybe Ukraine will need to follow Germany's example post-1945 and import millions of Turks and Asian/African people to rebuild.

 

[at6]

One way to slow the Russians down might be to give them Monkey Pox.