"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (1 Viewer)

[ThomasP]

Sigh . . . I know I am goin to hate myself for this:

Also see 1918 Treaty of Brest-Litovsk "Treaty of Brest-Litovsk - Wikipedia" for the map below:

Also see History of Ukraine "History of Ukraine - Wikipedia" for more detail of the region before 1654.

Also see Ukraine "Ukraine - Wikipedia" for some details of its history worth knowing.

 

[GrauGeist]

Sigh . . . I know I am goin to hate myself for this:
View attachment 670543
Also see 1918 Treaty of Brest-Litovsk "Treaty of Brest-Litovsk - Wikipedia" for the map below:
View attachment 670544

Also see History of Ukraine "History of Ukraine - Wikipedia" for more detail of the region before 1654.

Also see Ukraine "Ukraine - Wikipedia" for some details of it history worth knowing.

That's a good detail of the historical timeline, though a bit shorter than what transpired in the longerer historical timeline.

Back in the days of Thracia (modern day Bulgaria), most of today's Ukraine was within their territory, most wrested from the Scythians (who occupied a large swath of modern day Russia).

It's both sad and a bit funny that some people consider the Ukranian region part of Russia.
The Kyev dynasty existed long before Russia, the Kyevs adopted the Bulgarian's Cyrillic alphabet and created an empire.

Russia would not exist as we know it, if it weren't for the ancestors of Ukraine.

 

[WARSPITER]

No, but I am free to call or refer to a country, in whatever way I choose - e.g. the US, USA, the USA, the States, without a normal citizen of that country making a fuss about nothing.
Just as I can say Australia, Down-under, the Land Down-under, the Antipodes, etc. with out a local person falling into a national identity crisis.

Yeah but do not call it The Australia.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Yeah but do not call it The Australia.

Downunderland!

 

[WARSPITER]

Downunderland!

That'll do nicely !

 

[Snautzer01]

Downunderland!

Write it the right way please.

 

[Stig1207]

Russia would not exist as we know it, if it weren't for the ancestors of Ukraine.

So it is Ukraine's fault!

 

[Admiral Beez]

I come back to this thread to see what's up in the Russian-Ukraine war, and all I see are the wilfully Oblivious bickering about the name of Ukraine. The Ukrainians have told us how to refer to their country, the matter is settled. Take it off line to DMs please, no one else cares.

 

[vikingBerserker]

 

[Dimlee]

Switchblade in action.

 

[buffnut453]

More comedy from Lavrov:

Russia's foreign minister says that Moscow would consider offers from the West to re-establish ties, but for now will focus on developing relations with China.

Sergei Lavrov accused Western countries of espousing "Russophobia" since Moscow launched its "special military operation" in Ukraine, which is how the Kremlin defines its invasion.

"If [the West] want to offer something in terms of resuming relations, then we will seriously consider whether we will need it or not," Lavrov said at an event, according to a transcript on the foreign ministry's website last night.

Russia "must cease being dependent in any way on supplies" coming from the West, he added.

Moscow's goal now is to further develop ties with China, he said.

Russia would count on "only ourselves and on countries which have proved themselves reliable and do not 'dance to some other piper's music'", he said.

"If Western countries change their minds and propose some form of cooperation, we can then decide."

 

[buffnut453]

And Russian nationalists are urging escalation of Russia's efforts in Ukraine, to include full mobilization. Some of the language seems perilously close to "this is an existential threat to Russia":

Russian nationalists are increasingly criticising the failures of Russia's "special military operation" in Ukraine and are calling for further action, according to the Institute for the Study of War (ISW) think tank.

Veterans and military commentators are increasingly calling for further mobilisation "that the Kremlin likely remains unwilling and unable to pursue in the short term", the ISW says.

The All-Russian Officers Assembly, an independent pro-Russian veterans' association, called on President Putin "to recognise that Russian forces are no longer only 'de-Nazifying' Ukraine but are fighting a war for Russia's historic territories and existence in the world order", the ISW reports.

The officers also reportedly demanded the death penalty for Russian deserters.

The Assembly said that Moscow has failed to achieve its goals in three months, especially after a failed river crossing where a Russian battalion lost almost all its armoured vehicles this month.

This event "shocked Russian military observers and prompted them to question Russian competence", the ISW had previously said.

 

[buffnut453]

Interesting insight into the potential quagmire that Russia is getting itself into...resistance operators in occupied Melitopol claim to have killed 70 Russian soldiers between 20 March and 12 April:

When Russian forces arrived in the southern Ukrainian city of Melitopol in February, they were met with stiff resistance from residents.

Locals tried to block armoured vehicles, and people waved Ukrainian flags as Russian troops rolled in to occupy the city.

When the troops started to crack down on the protestors, the resistance movement evolved and new groups emerged.

From 20 March to 12 April, these "partisans eliminated 70 Russian soldiers during their night patrol," Ukraine's military Intelligence Directorate reported.

These groups are still active - last week, a Russian armoured train was reportedly derailed. Two Russian soldiers were found dead in the street days earlier.

Ivan Fedorov, the mayor of Melitopol, says these attacks were organised by partisan groups. "It's the job of our partisans, our secret services and our soldiers. They do this job together," he tells the BBC.

In response, the Russians are desperately trying to crush all resistance. They are searching houses and detaining people, residents say, often at random.

These resistance groups, however, are only a small part of the movement.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Moscow's goal now is to further develop ties with China, he said.

Does Russia really think they'll be treated fairly by China? China is an economic and military powerhouse, Russia is not. China will buy Russia's fossil fuels, but will demand terms in their favour.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Switchblade in action.

I'd want to see a lot more videos of exploding Russian artillery and not so many of MBTs and BMPs before I think Ukraine is capable of a major offensive.

The recent Russian advances south of Severodonetsk and northwest of Popasna are looking very worrisome. If not checked by the Ukrainians, they could lead to a double envelopment of Severodonetsk and Lysychansk.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

KYIV/SLOVYANSK, Ukraine, May 24 (Reuters) - Russian forces were launching an all-out assault to encircle Ukrainian troops in twin cities straddling a river in eastern Ukraine on Tuesday, a battle which could determine the success or failure of Moscow's main campaign in the east.

[...]

The easternmost part of the Ukrainian-held Donbas pocket, the city of Sievierodonetsk on the east bank of the Siverskiy Donets river and its twin Lysychansk on the west bank, have become the pivotal battlefield there, with Russian forces advancing from three directions to encircle them.

"The enemy has focused its efforts on carrying out an offensive in order to encircle Lysychansk and Sievierodonetsk," said Serhiy Gaidai, governor of Luhansk province, where the two cities are among the last territory still held by Ukraine.

"The intensity of fire on Sievierodonetsk has increased by multiple times, they are simply destroying the city," he said on TV, adding there were about 15,000 people in the city.

Reuters journalists in the Donbas, who reached Bakhmut further west, heard and saw intense shelling on the highway towards Lysychansk on Monday. Ukrainian armoured vehicles, tanks and rocket launchers were moving towards the front lines, with and buses carrying soldiers.

[...]

Gaidai said Ukrainian forces had driven the Russians out of the village of Toshkivka just south of Sievierodonetsk. Russian-backed separatists said they had taken control of Svitlodarsk, south of Bakhmut. Neither report could be independently confirmed.

Russia wages all-out assault to encircle Ukraine troops in east

Russian forces waged an all-out assault on Tuesday to encircle Ukrainian troops in twin eastern cities straddling a river, a battle that could determine the success or failure of Moscow's main campaign in the industrial heartland of Donbas.

www.reuters.com

 

[buffnut453]

Does Russia really think they'll be treated fairly by China? China is an economic and military powerhouse, Russia is not. China will buy Russia's fossil fuels, but will demand terms in their favour.

I did say it was more comedy from Lavrov.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

And Russian nationalists are urging escalation of Russia's efforts in Ukraine, to include full mobilization. Some of the language seems perilously close to "this is an existential threat to Russia":

[...]

The All-Russian Officers Assembly, an independent pro-Russian veterans' association, called on President Putin "to recognise that Russian forces are no longer only 'de-Nazifying' Ukraine but are fighting a war for Russia's historic territories and existence in the world order", the ISW reports.

In a very real sense they're right; failure in Ukraine could well lead to internal unrest and Putin's overthrow, which could in turn lead to Russian collapse in the world order. The problem with their logic is that they're ignoring the fact that Russia brought this state of affairs upon itself.

And even if the Russians win militarily, they won't be able to digest Ukraine. The resistance that will certainly spring up will remind Russians of Afghanistan, and end in the same ignominious manner, I believe, which would still result in the dangers above.

If follows that the Russians should starve defeat rather than reinforce it.

 

[Admiral Beez]

And even if the Russians win militarily, they won't be able to digest Ukraine.

The will be able to digest whatever parts of Donbas and the north coast of the Sea of Azov they hold when the fighting stops. The Russians will depopulate/relocate the Ukrainians and any questionable Russian speakers and bring in new people loyal to the Kremlin. That's exactly what they did to the Germans living in what became Kaliningrad in 1945.

 

[buffnut453]

The will be able to digest whatever parts of Donbas and the north coast of the Sea of Azov they hold when the fighting stops. The Russians will depopulate/relocate the Ukrainians and any questionable Russian speakers and bring in new people loyal to the Kremlin. That's exactly what they did to the Germans living in what became Kaliningrad in 1945.

Yes, and then they'll have the cost of rebuilding that entire area. They've totally destroyed much of the existing infrastructure such as the steelworks in Mariupol. They'll need to rebuild houses, industries, roads, bridges...how on earth do they think they'll manage that if they're chained down by sanctions? If they simply "print more money", it'll send inflation skyrocketing.

We've commented before about the poor quality of operational planning by the Russian military. However, there's a bigger problem at play: the total lack of strategy is breathtaking.