"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (3 Viewers)

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Dec 19, 2022

ARTESH said:
The only relation is that some of "humans" in your opinion, have not only fought on wrong side of a war that has no relation to them, but also have committed multiple crimes, from smallest to biggest, maybe the Ukrainians decide to show them mercy, maybe not. The whole point is that I won't care about their fate.

This has nothing to do with fate, but how their fate is decided. Listen, Artesh, in civilized places like the western world, criminals including war criminals and terrorists, are not simply executed with a bullet to the back of their head. They get their day in court, evidence is presented, and the rule of law is followed. Sentences are carried our in a just manner. Exactly how it should be done. Otherwise we would be no better than those we fight. We would not be building a better world for our children.

My opinion is that every human has the given right to stand trial, and that civilized rule of law is all that matters. Otherwise we would be no better than animals.

I will say nothing further on this topic. Have a good evening. Please stay safe.

ARTESH · Dec 19, 2022

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
I will say nothing further on this topic. Have a good evening. Please stay safe.

Thank you, for your time. I hope whatever that is best, happens, and be able to avoid making mistakes that lead to 1979 and following events.

Thumpalumpacus · Dec 19, 2022

Suspects should be tried, and depending on the convictions, imprisoned or perhaps executed. But it should be done under the same legal rubric that Ukraine would treat its own citizens. They are fighting to be a democratic nation run by the rule of law and not emotions.

As understandable as your sentiments may be, it reminds me of the quote that comes to mind, from the German philosopher Nietzsche: "Whoever battles monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster himself. And when you look long into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you."

ETA: Forgive my posting this after the discussion had been concluded. Mods, feel free to delete if you see fit, I'm not trying to shit-stir.

MiTasol · Dec 19, 2022

The best cure for the Iranian drones would be for Ukraine to send a handful of captured Russian soldiers provided with lots of vodka and cigarettes (and matches of course) to visit their Iranian supporters, and their suppliers, in their factories.

MiTasol · Dec 19, 2022

I may well be wrong but I suspect that Artesh has friends or loved ones who have been mistreated, or worse, by the current Iranian regime and that is colouring Artesh's thoughts.

As the saying goes we are the product of our experiences.

We who have not experienced the conditions in Iran should consider ourselves very lucky

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Dec 19, 2022

Thumpalumpacus said:
Suspects should be tried, and depending on the convictions, imprisoned or perhaps executed. But it should be done under the same legal rubric that Ukraine would treat its own citizens. They are fighting to be a democratic nation run by the rule of law and not emotions.

As understandable as your sentiments may be, it reminds me of the quote that comes to mind, from the German philosopher Nietzsche: "Whoever battles monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster himself. And when you look long into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you."

ETA: Forgive my posting this after the discussion had been concluded. Mods, feel free to delete if you see fit, I'm not trying to shit-stir.

Agreed, and well said.

You are more than welcome to continue the discussion. So is Artesh. I just see no point in myself continuing it because it is a debate where neither of us will convince the other.

Thumpalumpacus · Dec 19, 2022

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Agreed, and well said.

You are more than welcome to continue the discussion. So is Artesh. I just see no point in myself continuing it because it is a debate where neither of us will convince the other.

I've spoken my piece, and I know as well that

ARTESH is a thoughtful man who while he may not agree will listen, so I too will leave it unless there's a question.

Admiral Beez · Dec 19, 2022

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
I just see no point in myself continuing it because it is a debate where neither of us will convince the other.

And, IMO that's the point where the few, usually two, posters who care so deeply about something otherwise tangential should go to DMs. As for myself, I keep skipping ahead to find the conclusion of this off topic distraction and a return to things Ukraine related.

Here's some potentially good news from Greece. Paywall free version: https://archive.vn/b30LR

Ukraine May Finally Get Greece’s Russian S-300 Missiles

Ukraine would welcome the addition of Greece's S-300s, even though it's acquiring the much more advanced Patriot.

www.forbes.com

And more Leopard 1 derivatives now shipping from Germany.

Germany supplies Ukraine with 12 Bergepanzer 2 recovery vehicles based on Leopard 1 tank chassis | Defense News December 2022 Global Security army industry | Defense Security global news industry army year 2022 | Archive News year

Germany supplies Ukraine with 12 Bergepanzer 2 recovery vehicles based tank Leopard 1 chassis

www.armyrecognition.com

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Dec 19, 2022

Admiral Beez said:
And, IMO that's the point where the few, usually two, posters who care so deeply about something otherwise tangential should go to DMs. As for myself, I keep skipping ahead to find the conclusion of this off topic distraction and a return to things Ukraine related.

Here's some potentially good news from Greece.

Ukraine May Finally Get Greece’s Russian S-300 Missiles

Ukraine would welcome the addition of Greece's S-300s, even though it's acquiring the much more advanced Patriot.

www.forbes.com

Paywall free version: https://archive.vn/b30LR

Accept its not a topic distraction. This was a discussion about what to do with war criminals or terrorists involved in the fighting. Just because you don't care or find it important does not mean that other's don't. Solution? You already identified it. Scroll past it.

GrauGeist · Dec 19, 2022

The war crimes discussion is Ukraine related.

And those responsible for war crimes/atrocities will most likely end up at the International Criminal Court in the Hague.

Admiral Beez · Dec 19, 2022

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Accept its not a topic distraction.

Is that an order?

GrauGeist said:
And those responsible for war crimes/atrocities will most likely end up at the International Criminal Court in the Hague.

I hope so. But I don't share your optimism that anything but mid level bit players will end up.

Thumpalumpacus · Dec 19, 2022

Admiral Beez said:
And, IMO that's the point where the few, usually two, posters who care so deeply about something otherwise tangential should go to DMs. As for myself, I keep skipping ahead to find the conclusion of this off topic distraction and a return to things Ukraine related.

Here's some potentially good news from Greece. Paywall free version: https://archive.vn/b30LR

Ukraine May Finally Get Greece’s Russian S-300 Missiles

Ukraine would welcome the addition of Greece's S-300s, even though it's acquiring the much more advanced Patriot.

www.forbes.com

And more Leopard 1 derivatives now shipping from Germany.

Germany supplies Ukraine with 12 Bergepanzer 2 recovery vehicles based on Leopard 1 tank chassis | Defense News December 2022 Global Security army industry | Defense Security global news industry army year 2022 | Archive News year

Germany supplies Ukraine with 12 Bergepanzer 2 recovery vehicles based tank Leopard 1 chassis

www.armyrecognition.com

I don't know about anyone else here, but my DMs parse very poorly with my software, with lines literally two or three characters long. Very hard to read, I have to copy, paste into word, type my reply, copy and paste again ... it's a pain in the ass, so I use it only very rarely.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Dec 19, 2022

Admiral Beez said:
Is that an order?

Why the attitude?

Where did I order you to do anything?

Greg Boeser · Dec 19, 2022

You wrote "accept", when I think you meant "except".

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Dec 19, 2022

Greg Boeser said:
You wrote "accept", when I think you meant "except".

I'll blame that on auto-correct.

A Admiral Beez if that is what you were getting at my apologies. I guess I got a lil attitude. My bad. It was not my intent to be a dick, and I was.

Thumpalumpacus · Dec 19, 2022

Greg Boeser said:
You wrote "accept", when I think you meant "except".

Udo does not approve!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Dec 19, 2022

Thumpalumpacus said:
Udo does not approve!

I see what you did there, well done.

And on that note I have to go off-topic. The last time I saw the great Udo in Nürnberg, Germany.

hawkeye2an · Dec 20, 2022

RogerdeLluria said:
On 12 January 1968 Bell UH-1B succeeded in shooting down one An-2 (reportedly the crew used an ak-47, so I assume that the UH-1 was an unarmed variant)
Considering the max speed of AN-2, anything that is cost effective to shot-down those Iranian drones will have an easy run at those An-2.

Damn who would have thought that there is a need for machine-gun armed relatively slow piston-engined combat aircraft in XXI century.
And who would have thought those are needed to fight Russia

We just keep re-learning that low and slow is always going to be needed

GrauGeist · Dec 20, 2022

Admiral Beez said:
I hope so. But I don't share your optimism that anything but mid level bit players will end up.

If any of those responsible can be rounded up and put on trial, it's a start.

Though I admit that I would like nothing more than to use Imperial Roman and later, Medieval forms of execution to all involved - from the top down.

That *may* cause others to take note and avoid the same poor life choices.

Thumpalumpacus · Dec 20, 2022

hawkeye2an said:
We just keep re-learning that low and slow is always going to be needed

My prayer: "Lord, give me a beer to accept the things I cannot change, and give me an A-10 to change the things I can."

"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (3 Viewers)

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