"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (3 Viewers)

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Spoken like a true follower of Russian state media! I say we TOW the bridge that troll lives under.
 
wlewisiii said:
It's very plausible that he would do so given the events of the past week. However, I will point to the US Senate and note that the cuts the Putin Conference want won't get past the Senate.
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House is responsible for budget, taxing, and spending, Senate for foreign affairs, treaties, and judiciary. Financially, what the House wants, the House gets. Only POTUS can stop them.
 
XBe02Drvr said:
House is responsible for budget, taxing, and spending, Senate for foreign affairs, treaties, and judiciary. Financially, what the House wants, the House gets. Only POTUS can stop them.
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But hasn't the Lend Lease bill already passed? I thought Biden now had a free pass to flood Ukraine with US aid?

Smacking down muslim despotic regimes and poking Chinese sensitivities over Taiwan aside, the primary reason the USA and most of NATO has a post-WW2 military at all is to deter and if necessary kill Russians. Ukraine is doing it at zero cost in American lives. With that goal in mind, I have to hope American taxpayers and politicians of all stripes can believe their money's well spent in arming Ukraine.
 
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Glider said:
Looks like the UK are getting ready to send some Challenger tanks to the Ukraine. Talks have been ongoing for a couple of weeks
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That sounds like a logistical and maintenance nightmare. First of all, the Challenger 2 is one of the very few NATO tanks that does not use a variant of the Rheinmetall 120 mm L/44 smoothbore gun firing single piece ammunition - ammunition that is used and readily available from most of Ukraine's NATO neighbours. Instead the Challenger 2 uses the L30A1 120 mm rifled gun firing two piece ammunition - ammunition that no one in Europe uses except the Brits, and likely why the new Challenger 3 tanks will instead use a variant of the Rheinmetall 120 mm L/44 smoothbore. And then there's the maintenance. The Challenger 2 uses a Perkins CV12-6A V12 diesel, an engine and UK-based manufacturer (subsidiary of USA's Caterpillar) that no one else in NATO uses. Lastly, no one who's ever owned a vehicle, civilian, commercial or otherwise made in the UK is going to attest to British reliability.

Epic Fail? Expert Claims the United Kingdom's New Challenger 2 Tank Is a Terrible Mistake

Let's take a closer look.
nationalinterest.org
 
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I don't disagree about the facts you state (apart from the reliability which in the Challenger 2 has been pretty good). However it's all we have to offer, and from the Ukraine side, it's all that's being offered. The UK doesn't have Leopard II's or MI's to offer, it's all we have, so there isn't any point complaining about it.

There is little doubt that the ones we send will be missing some of the upgrades that other nation's and even when compared to the latest versions of the Challenger. However it is still a very good tank, well armoured, well armed and most certainly a significant upgrade to the T72's. The Challenger has been in action a number of times and hasn't been found wanting.

I think it holds a record of sorts, in that only one Challenger has ever been damaged beyond repair, and that was hit by another Challenger in a 'friendly fire' incident.

Edit - The article doesn't say that its a terrible tank, just it wasn't the first choice.
 
Glider said:
I don't disagree about the facts you state (apart from the reliability which in the Challenger 2 has been pretty good). However it's all we have to offer
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Then offer something else other than MBTs. Like AgustaWestland Apaches.

But is the Challenger offer a serious one, made by those who can execute the move once Ukraine accepts it? I think this is more a case of Ukraine says yes please! and then the British bureaucracy starts to turn, and the final decision makers decide the offer was never solid, and that nothing is coming.
 
I wouldn't complain if they did. The Warrior is a very capable APC. It doesn't normally carry an AT missile which the M2 does but the 30mm cannon can deal with anything apart from a MBT.

Going back to the Challenger. I know this is from Wiki but it is well referenced

During the 2003 invasion of Iraq, the Challenger 2 tanks suffered no tank losses to Iraqi fire. In one encounter within an urban area, a Challenger 2 came under attack from irregular forces with machine guns and rocket propelled grenades. The driver's sight was damaged and while attempting to back away under the commander's directions, the other sights were damaged and the tank threw its tracks entering a ditch. It was hit by 14 rocket propelled grenades from close range and a MILAN anti-tank missile.[39] The crew survived, safe within the tank until it was recovered for repairs, the worst damage being to the sighting system. It was back in operation six hours later. According to British army, one Challenger 2 operating near Basra survived being hit by 70 RPGs in another incident.[40]

  • 25 March 2003: A friendly fire ("blue-on-blue") incident in Basra in which one Challenger 2 of the Black Watch Battlegroup (2nd Royal Tank Regiment) mistakenly engaged another Challenger 2 of the Queen's Royal Lancers after detecting what was believed to be an enemy flanking manoeuvre on thermal equipment. The attacking tank's second HESH round hit the open commander's hatch lid of the QRL tank sending hot fragments into the turret, killing two crew members. The hit caused a fire that eventually ignited the stowed ammunition, destroying the tank. This is only Challenger 2 to be destroyed on operations.[41][42][43]
  • August 2006: An RPG-29 capable of firing a tandem-charge penetrated the frontal lower underbelly armour of a Challenger 2 commanded by Captain Thomas Williams of The Queens's Royal Hussars south east of al-Amarah, southern Iraq. Its driver, Trooper Sean Chance, lost part of his foot in the blast; two more of the crew were slightly injured. Chance was able to reverse the vehicle 1.5 mi (2.4 km) to the regimental aid post despite his injuries.[44] The incident was not made public until May 2007; in response to accusations that crews had been told the tank was impervious to the insurgents' weapons, the MoD said "We have never claimed that the Challenger 2 is impenetrable."[45] Since then, the explosive reactive armour has been replaced with Chobham Armour and the steel underbelly lined with armour as part of the Streetfighter upgrade as a direct response to this incident.[citation needed]
  • 6 April 2007: in Basra, Iraq, a shaped charge from an IED penetrated the underside of a tank resulting in the driver losing a leg and causing minor injuries to another soldier.[46][47]

An upgraded Challenger 2 with added explosive reactive armour panels, manufactured by Rafael Advanced Defense Systems[48]
​
To help prevent incidents of this nature, Challenger 2s have been upgraded with a new passive armour package, including the use of add-on armour manufactured by Rafael Advanced Defense Systems of Israel.[48] When deployed on operations the Challenger 2 is now normally upgraded to Theatre Entry Standard (TES), which includes a number of modifications including armour and weapon system upgrades
 

Maybe I was wrong when I wrote that. Admiral Kuznetsov may be scraped sooner than expected. Apparently it's already in the rotten state

"When the diving teams examined the hull of the ship, it was found that the metal structures below the third deck were exposed to significant corrosion. The holds are completely filled with muddy water, which makes a detailed examination of the ship from the inside impossible."
 
It's a start. Perhaps this will get Leopards into Ukraine faster. Portugal has a lot of Leopards (I think). Is Portugal expecting to be invaded by Spain?
 
XBe02Drvr said:
Spoken like a true follower of Russian state media!
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Don't forget that Western media is conspiring to mislead everyone in Europe, the US and Canada, Australia, and elsewhere about the actual state of the war in Ukraine...and that includes right-biased feeds like Fox News, left-biased feeds like CNN, Reuters (which is pretty unbiased), and even news organizations that have a mandate not to show political bias, like the BBC. It's one hell of a conspiracy!

It's a good thing that we have open, unbiased, unadulterated Russian media to keep us all straight.

<Sarcasm Mode: OFF>
 
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