"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (3 Viewers)

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GTX said:
www.reuters.com

Ukraine defence minister confident West will send jets

Ukrainian Defence Minister Oleksii Reznikov said on Wednesday he was "absolutely" confident Western countries will supply fighter jets to Kyiv to help fight Russia's invasion even though some have been cool on the idea so far.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
Click to expand...

It's not just sending jets though. If they arrive in penny packet numbers, Western jets are going to do very little in the overall scheme of things.

Given Russian air superiority, air surveillance capabilities, aircraft reserves and the VERY dense SAM network covering occupied Ukraine, nothing short of a full scale air campaign - a la Desert Storm - is going to give the Ukranians control of their skies.

If you give Ukraine a few squadrons worth of F-16s, all they're going to be really useful for is fighter bomber roles at NoE altitudes. Anything at higher altitudes is going to have to occur WAY behind the front lines, or risk meeting a lot of supersonic telegraph poles. The Russians have too many fighters backed up by AWACs and too many long range SAMs to risk using Western fighters as anything other than ground pounders or drone/cruise missile chasers.

If it was my money, I'd be plumping for more SPAAGs, and medium and long range SAMs. With a new Russian air campaign reportedly in the works, a couple dozen fresh AA systems could play havoc.
 
Jabberwocky said:
It's not just sending jets though. If they arrive in penny packet numbers, Western jets are going to do very little in the overall scheme of things.

Given Russian air superiority, air surveillance capabilities, aircraft reserves and the VERY dense SAM network covering occupied Ukraine, nothing short of a full scale air campaign - a la Desert Storm - is going to give the Ukranians control of their skies.

If you give Ukraine a few squadrons worth of F-16s, all they're going to be really useful for is fighter bomber roles at NoE altitudes. Anything at higher altitudes is going to have to occur WAY behind the front lines, or risk meeting a lot of supersonic telegraph poles. The Russians have too many fighters backed up by AWACs and too many long range SAMs to risk using Western fighters as anything other than ground pounders or drone/cruise missile chasers.

If it was my money, I'd be plumping for more SPAAGs, and medium and long range SAMs. With a new Russian air campaign reportedly in the works, a couple dozen fresh AA systems could play havoc.
Click to expand...


The primary role of the UAF is SEAD with HARM and shooting down cruise missiles
 
Jabberwocky said:
It's not just sending jets though. If they arrive in penny packet numbers, Western jets are going to do very little in the overall scheme of things.

Given Russian air superiority, air surveillance capabilities, aircraft reserves and the VERY dense SAM network covering occupied Ukraine, nothing short of a full scale air campaign - a la Desert Storm - is going to give the Ukranians control of their skies.

If you give Ukraine a few squadrons worth of F-16s, all they're going to be really useful for is fighter bomber roles at NoE altitudes. Anything at higher altitudes is going to have to occur WAY behind the front lines, or risk meeting a lot of supersonic telegraph poles. The Russians have too many fighters backed up by AWACs and too many long range SAMs to risk using Western fighters as anything other than ground pounders or drone/cruise missile chasers.

If it was my money, I'd be plumping for more SPAAGs, and medium and long range SAMs. With a new Russian air campaign reportedly in the works, a couple dozen fresh AA systems could play havoc.
Click to expand...
I am afraid that I see this differently.
Western Jets even in small numbers I believe can make a huge difference. Right now the Russian air Force can choose when, where and how they fight, and you are correct. Until now they have stayed a long way from the front lines. However Russia has started an attack across a broad front and is making some gains in certain area's. If heaven forbid they do make a breakthrough or look as if they are going to make a hole, you can be sure that they will throw everything into that area, including aircraft. The Russian aircraft have both the numbers and a technical advantage over the UAF. This will give them a significant advantage and there is a good chance that they will have local air superiority where they need it and break the back of the defence.

A couple of squadrons of modern jets serving in the air to air role will go a long way to nullifying that local advantage.

In addition, only airpower can attack such a breakthrough quickly and from a considerable distance. For that to work the UAF will need something to keep the Russian fighters off their backs and right now the UAF do not have aircraft with such a capability.

Russia does have a theoretical AWACS capability but right now they haven't proved that they can achieve much.
 
Modern western jets with AGM-88s and greater coordination capabilities….. what am I arguing about?
Ukrainian personnel should have been training for months on F-16s and Leopard IIs already. Air power is crucial for…hey, everyone here knows why. It doesn't matter what's the best plane or tank. It's what there is the most of.
Russian equipment is running out or wearing out, for both sides. The Russian stuff ain't going to be replaceable and let's be thankful for that.
I'm venting. Sorry.
 
SaparotRob said:
Modern western jets with AGM-88s and greater coordination capabilities….. what am I arguing about?
Ukrainian personnel should have been training for months on F-16s and Leopard IIs already. Air power is crucial for…hey, everyone here knows why. It doesn't matter what's the best plane or tank. It's what there is the most of.
Russian equipment is running out or wearing out, for both sides. The Russian stuff ain't going to be replaceable and let's be thankful for that.
I'm venting. Sorry.
Click to expand...

The other thing, Rob, is that Western planes have better on-board sensor capabilities, and displays supporting situational awareness. This is a result of the doctrinal framework the planes were designed in. The Soviet designs were made in the context of ground controllers feeding info and directions to the pilots.
 
Thumpalumpacus said:
The other thing, Rob, is that Western planes have better on-board sensor capabilities, and displays supporting situational awareness. This is a result of the doctrinal framework the planes were designed in. The Soviet designs were made in the context of ground controllers feeding info and directions to the pilots.
Click to expand...
I was going to go there myself, even going to hint at an Eastern European "knock off " of a poor man's F-35's coordination set (as long as NATO has some conveniently flying around having fun over Poland). But most folks here don't need my convincing. I got a little frustrated and caught myself heading for the guard rail. Didn't feel like erasing it all.
 
Interesting thread (with sources) about uniforms and corruption.

threadreaderapp.com

Thread by @ChrisO_wiki on Thread Reader App

@ChrisO_wiki: 1/ Three Russian generals are reported to have been sacked over the provision of poor-quality uniforms, which has left troops fighting in Ukraine without adequate protection against the cold. A further...…
threadreaderapp.com threadreaderapp.com
 
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