"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (4 Viewers)

Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules

Greg Boeser said:
But they allow them to be used.
Click to expand...

7B59BE2A-2F7C-4D93-A460-297B28817E27.gif
 

KYIV, Ukraine (AP) — The Ukrainian military might pull troops back from the key stronghold of Bakhmut, an adviser to Ukraine's president said Wednesday in remarks that suggested Russia could capture the city that has become a symbol of Ukrainian resistance.

Kremlin forces have waged a bloody, monthslong offensive to take Bakhmut, a city of salt and gypsum mines in eastern Ukraine that has become a ghost town.

"Our military is obviously going to weigh all of the options. So far, they've held the city, but if need be, they will strategically pull back," Alexander Rodnyansky, an economic adviser to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, told CNN. "We're not going to sacrifice all of our people just for nothing."

The battle for Bakhmut has come to embody Ukraine's determination as the city's defenders hold out against relentless shelling and Russian troops suffer heavy casualties.

apnews.com

Ukraine official: Forces may pull out of key city of Bakhmut

KYIV, Ukraine (AP) — The Ukrainian military might pull troops back from the key stronghold of Bakhmut , an adviser to Ukraine's president said Wednesday in remarks that suggested Russia could capture the city that has become a symbol of Ukrainian resistance.
apnews.com apnews.com
 
A couple of things to consider re the 'slow' rate at which the US/NATO is providing complex systems like the tanks and aircraft.

To train the tank crew in the basics of daily maintenance, operations of the weapons system, safe/effective driving of the tank, loading the gun, laying and firing the gun, command of the tank, using terrain to hide, etc, is considered to require a minimum of 3 months. This is just the time to provide the required technical and hands-on knowledge. NOTE that this is normally done after basic training.

To turn the crew into a combat capable crew and integrated with other tank crews to form a combat capable unit, is considered to require a minimum of 9 months - working with one another and with other crews/units..

To train the rear area units in effective maintenance and repair of the M1 Abrams is considered to require a minimum of 6 months. The US can afford to treat the M1 like a one-shot use item - ie if it breaks down you leave it/destroy or disable it if necessary, otherwise recover it when convenient and send it to the rear for repair when convenient. Send in a new tank (including a new crew if necessary). The Ukraine cannot afford to do this - either in terms of numbers of tanks, or in terms of readily accessible/safe repair capability.

None of the above is a comment on the abilities of the Ukrainians - it is simply reality. The UAF will have to select/pull personnel from their cadre/regular/new recruit numbers and send them elsewhere for training. The personnel selected/pulled will (obviously) not be available for duties in Ukraine. How many veteran tankers can they afford to pull from the from line units? Maybe send personnel being rotated to R&R to training instead?

Note that the same considerations re personnel apply to fighter pilot training. It takes at least a year to train a new pilot to be semi-effective in an aircraft like the F-16. If they pull a large enough number of already skilled/veteran pilots to send for training and work-up of 1 or 2 F-16 squadrons (example only) - what will that leave them in terms of an effective Air Force if (when) the brown stuff hits the fan in Ukraine when they are absent?

The same considerations re maintenance also apply to any US/NATO aircraft.

And there are the logistics chain requirements.

Just saying.
 
Last edited:
ThomasP said:
A couple of things to consider re the 'slow' rate at which the US/NATO is providing complex systems like the tanks and aircraft.

To train the tank crew in the basics of daily maintenance, operations of the weapons system, safe/effective driving of the tank, loading the gun, laying and firing the gun, command of the tank, using terrain to hide, etc, is considered to require a minimum of 3 months. This is just the time to provide the required technical and hands-on knowledge. NOTE that this is normally done after basic training.

To turn the crew into a combat capable crew and integrated with other tank crews to form a combat capable unit, is considered to require a minimum of 9 months - working with one another and with other crews/units..

To train the rear area units in effective maintenance and repair of the M1 Abrams is considered to require a minimum of 6 months. The US can afford to treat the M1 like a one-shot use item - ie if it breaks down you leave it/destroy or disable it if necessary, otherwise recover it when convenient and send it to the rear for repair when convenient. Send in a new tank (including a new crew if necessary). The Ukraine cannot afford to do this - either in terms of numbers of tanks, or in terms of readily accessible/safe repair capability.

None of the above is a comment on the abilities of the Ukrainians - it is simply reality. The UAF will have to select/pull personnel from their cadre/regular/new recruit numbers and send them elsewhere for training. The personnel selected/pulled will (obviously) not be available for duties in Ukraine. How many veteran tankers can they afford to pull from the from line units? Maybe send personnel being rotated to R&R to training instead?

Note that the same considerations re personnel apply to fighter pilot training. It takes at least a year to train a new pilot to be semi-effective in an aircraft like the F-16. If they pull a large enough number of already skilled/veteran pilots to send for training and work-up of 1 or 2 F-16 squadrons (example only) - what will that leave them in terms of an effective Air Force if (when) the brown stuff hits the fan in Ukraine when they are absent?

The same considerations re maintenance also apply to any US/NATO aircraft.

And there are the logistics chain requirements.

Just saying.
Click to expand...
Agreed.

I've touched on this issue before - you can't just drop a dozen Leopards or F-16s onto Ukraine's border, wave and say "good luck".

It's a multi-faceted situation, from pilot/crew training to ground crew/mechanic training, spare parts supply chain and related logistics.
 
GrauGeist said:
Agreed.

I've touched on this issue before - you can't just drop a dozen Leopards or F-16s onto Ukraine's border, wave and say "good luck".

It's a multi-faceted situation, from pilot/crew training to ground crew/mechanic training, spare parts supply chain and related logistics.
Click to expand...
Yes. That would be like giving first year driver an 80 ton road train, or me a formula one.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 5 (members: 1, guests: 4)

Similar threads

A
The coming $26 billion windfall for the Canadian Armed Forces. What to buy?
2
Replies
35
Views
1K
Warspite63
Warspite63
M
All V-22's Grounded
Replies
2
Views
1K
GTX
GTX
M
All This For The Low, Low Price of .....
Replies
19
Views
2K
MIflyer
M
M
The Wrath of KAAN?
Replies
3
Views
831
Snautzer01
Snautzer01
M
The USAF V-22 Mishap of 2023
Replies
2
Views
490
Thumpalumpacus
Thumpalumpacus
Back