"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (14 Viewers)

[fubar57]

Trump airs fresh frustrations with Zelenskyy, as U.S. officials amplify pressure on Ukrainian leader | CBC News

U.S. President Donald Trump slammed Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy on Monday for suggesting that the end of Russia's war against Ukraine likely "is still very, very far away."

www.cbc.ca

 

[fubar57]

Trump pausing U.S. military aid to Ukraine, official says | CBC News

U.S. President Donald Trump has paused all military aid to Ukraine following his clash with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy last week, a White House official said on Monday.

www.cbc.ca

 

[MiTasol]

Trump pausing U.S. military aid to Ukraine, official says | CBC News

U.S. President Donald Trump has paused all military aid to Ukraine following his clash with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy last week, a White House official said on Monday.

www.cbc.ca

We all knew that was going to happen sooner or later so it is almost non news.

For all those employed by, or holding shares in, the US Defence industry - sorry but it has been obvious for some time that this would happen.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Firstly, I've never dismissed any of your sources as right-wing propaganda.

Secondly, that tweet simply states that Zelinsky "confirmed that the Ukrainian people will not support a fake peace agreement where Putin gets everything he wants and there are no security arrangements for Ukraine." The Ukrainian people don't want a peace deal forced down their throats if it allows Putin to win and doesn't provide security guarantees for any remaining part of Ukraine. Who, in their right mind, would sign up to any such deal? The aggressor gets to win and there are no consequences if he embarks on further aggression? That's not a peace deal...at least not how I understand the meaning of the term.

We all want peace in Ukraine. However, rewarding Russian aggression is NOT the way to achieve that goal.

"Peace at any price" usually turns out to be the most expensive, "peace at any cost".

 

[Ascent]

We all knew that was going to happen sooner or later so it is almost non news.

For all those employed by, or holding shares in, the US Defence industry - sorry but it has been obvious for some time that this would happen.

View: https://youtu.be/7giYIisLuaA?si=wJzu5A6L29gPrMnZ
I haven't seen this shared yet, in it he shows that European defence companies shares have climbed about 30% or more the last couple of months while US ones have dropped.

 

[buffnut453]

According to Newsweek, the US is considering reducing sanctions on Russia:

US considers easing sanctions on Russia after Trump-Zelensky meltdown

US officials are expected to discuss the proposals with Russian representatives in the coming days, according to Reuters.

www.newsweek.com

It's not a well-sourced article so we'll have to see whether it proves to be correct.

News today of the US pausing aid to Ukraine will take on added importance if the US also lifts sanctions on Russia. If that happens, then it's pretty clear that Washington won't be an honest broker and is simply sacrificing Ukraine.

 

[GrauGeist]

Zelensky as stated (many times) that Ukraine and it's people will not settle for anything less than Russia leaving it's sovereign soil.

 

[MiTasol]

Trump airs fresh frustrations with Zelenskyy, as U.S. officials amplify pressure on Ukrainian leader | CBC News

U.S. President Donald Trump slammed Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy on Monday for suggesting that the end of Russia's war against Ukraine likely "is still very, very far away."

www.cbc.ca

Obviously the truth hurts and no one is allowed to tell him that truth.

What is no doubt privately hurting even more is that Ukraine and nearly all of NATO are now ignoring him and his pronouncements on the subject.

He will never admit that his actions in barely one month have massively degraded the office of the POTUS in the eyes of those in power in many countries.

 

[SplitRz]

"Peace at any price" usually turns out to be the most expensive, "peace at any cost".

Indeed

Those who assess financial price as the main criteria are ignorant strangers to the moral, diplomatic, and clearly historically proven REAL long term costs... Those who continually warp reality with ever more convoluted apologia and excuse, look increasingly dishonest and ludicrous.

That so many of that ilk walk amongst us is a cause for real psychological concern. Not just regarding the erosion of basic empathy and decency, but also reflective of the way in which social media now allows the instantaneous and wholesale distribution of overt and self evidently false and contradictory propaganda. It also reflects the 'unlearning' of recent history.

Each day that passes shows the emptiness and contradiction of that self-centred, inward view. The Atlantic is no longer a moat. And with great power comes GREAT responsibility. Sometimes a nation has to and chooses to take the difficult path - and it takes courage and conviction to do the right thing. Not the easy, financially profitable thing - the one that pays no heed to the suffering of others and views pacts with murderous autocrats as just another business deal. Honour and humanity have costs, but ones that should be borne proudly and responsibly. Whereas those nations or cultures that failed the test and have capitulated or collaborated out of short term interest, remain nationally tainted even to this day.

A nation stands at a cross-roads that will define the fate of many other democratic nations. 'Greatness' is assessed historically on the key decisions made in times of crisis. What will the assessment be in 50 years time?

 

[Dimlee]

They said: "Watch a good comedy to forget about politics for a while".
OK, I watched that.
Wait a minute...
Apologize!

View: https://youtu.be/lwfuUyTMpVY?si=nlx8e-NyMFtWnL7x

 

[drgondog]

Not gonna go point by point - wastes my time and yours. However, I have attached a link that succinctly explains the last 45 days in office in context that I agree with.

America As Republic, Not As Empire – Europe's 'Sound And Fury' After Jaw-Dropping Pivots In US Policy | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

For those of you that think I am a right wing wingnut (and by definition of fools, therefore a Nazi, for those that do not understand how close National Socialism is to many brands of current Democrat Socialism), I am a died in the wool Constitutional Democrat.

Most of you are not familiar with our Founding Fathers and will have to study Thomas Jefferson to understand the term.

I have voted independent several times over the last 65 years because neither the Republican nor Democrat met my standard for support, unqualified and without reservation, for the Bill of Rights.

IMO A government that suppresses or deems free speech as hate crimes, prohibits ANY peaceful assembly, imposes their will on their citizens, prohibits the right to keep and bear arms, trashes the right to privacy and the right to confront accusers in a criminal procedure - are either fascist or have tendencies toward totalitarian rule in my world view.

I don't expect anybody to share my views on personal liberty, and I am content to be reviled as a right wing MAGA nutcase - I've been called worse.

I was also brainwashed by my father, a career officer and warrior - that we (US) are a Constitutional Republic, and that the oath of Office is to defend the Constitution (not the President or America) from all enemies foreign and domestic. Defending the President and America are implied but not absolute.

He passed before the shitshows of the late 1980s unfolded to current politics in the US. I believe that he would be disgusted with many 'Trumpian behaviors and lack of civility' but he would have voted for him based on his vision and execution.

Take what you want, leave the rest.

 

[Marcel]

Not gonna go point by point - wastes my time and yours. However, I have attached a link that succinctly explains the last 45 days in office in context that I agree with.

America As Republic, Not As Empire – Europe's 'Sound And Fury' After Jaw-Dropping Pivots In US Policy | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

For those of you that think I am a right wing wingnut (and by definition of fools, therefore a Nazi, for those that do not understand how close National Socialism is to many brands of current Democrat Socialism), I am a died in the wool Constitutional Democrat.

Most of you are not familiar with our Founding Fathers and will have to study Thomas Jefferson to understand the term.

I have voted independent several times over the last 65 years because neither the Republican nor Democrat met my standard for support, unqualified and without reservation, for the Bill of Rights.

IMO A government that suppresses or deems free speech as hate crimes, prohibits ANY peaceful assembly, imposes their will on their citizens, prohibits the right to keep and bear arms, trashes the right to privacy and the right to confront accusers in a criminal procedure - are either fascist or have tendencies toward totalitarian rule in my world view.

I don't expect anybody to share my views on personal liberty, and I am content to be reviled as a right wing MAGA nutcase - I've been called worse.

I was also brainwashed by my father, a career officer and warrior - that we (US) are a Constitutional Republic, and that the oath of Office is to defend the Constitution (not the President or America) from all enemies foreign and domestic. Defending the President and America are implied but not absolute.

He passed before the shitshows of the late 1980s unfolded to current politics in the US. I believe that he would be disgusted with many 'Trumpian behaviors and lack of civility' but he would have voted for him based on his vision and execution.

Take what you want, leave the rest.

Hi Bill, I don't see you as a rightwing nutcase. I respect you as a person.

However, the article you posted here is offensive to me as a European citizen and pertinent untrue. The perceived censorship in Europe is a myth made up by MAGA like so many untruths they shout. I will not go into details on this article as I would have to ban myself for getting too political. But the content is so distant from the truth, I would not even know where to start. Vance's remarks were particularity rich for a government who just banned journalists for calling the "Gulf of Mexico" by the name the whole world uses. I'll leave it at that as I don't want to spawn another very dangerous discussion.

At other members: don't follow this thread of the discussion. It will end in tears.

 

[Peter Gunn]

Not gonna go point by point - wastes my time and yours. However, I have attached a link that succinctly explains the last 45 days in office in context that I agree with.

America As Republic, Not As Empire – Europe's 'Sound And Fury' After Jaw-Dropping Pivots In US Policy | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

For those of you that think I am a right wing wingnut (and by definition of fools, therefore a Nazi, for those that do not understand how close National Socialism is to many brands of current Democrat Socialism), I am a died in the wool Constitutional Democrat.

Most of you are not familiar with our Founding Fathers and will have to study Thomas Jefferson to understand the term.

I have voted independent several times over the last 65 years because neither the Republican nor Democrat met my standard for support, unqualified and without reservation, for the Bill of Rights.

IMO A government that suppresses or deems free speech as hate crimes, prohibits ANY peaceful assembly, imposes their will on their citizens, prohibits the right to keep and bear arms, trashes the right to privacy and the right to confront accusers in a criminal procedure - are either fascist or have tendencies toward totalitarian rule in my world view.

I don't expect anybody to share my views on personal liberty, and I am content to be reviled as a right wing MAGA nutcase - I've been called worse.

I was also brainwashed by my father, a career officer and warrior - that we (US) are a Constitutional Republic, and that the oath of Office is to defend the Constitution (not the President or America) from all enemies foreign and domestic. Defending the President and America are implied but not absolute.

He passed before the shitshows of the late 1980s unfolded to current politics in the US. I believe that he would be disgusted with many 'Trumpian behaviors and lack of civility' but he would have voted for him based on his vision and execution.

Take what you want, leave the rest.

Probably coming as no surprise to anyone, I agree with you on all points. So if the left wing nutjobs want to call me a right wing nutjob, have at it, but then again, I believe in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, not sure what lefties believe.

Personally I think Zelenski is a bit of a con artist but that's just my take. And no, I don't give too much care about whether Ukraine is independent or under Russia, what DOES amuse me is Russia getting it's ass handed to it. I too grew up in the '60s listening to the blustering bullsh!t that constantly came out of Moscow.

I guess I was brainwashed as well by my father and his three brothers, all WWII A.A.F. combat veterans.

If any of our European (and apparently some American) friends on this forum are upset or insulted by what the current POTUS is doing, you don't understand what a Constitutional Republic is, and I'm not being condescending or insulting, merely stating fact. But the reverse is true for me, I have very little clue in the workings of say, a Constitutional Monarchy so there's that.

 

[Admiral Beez]

That wasn't a peace deal - there was no war at the time of the treaties (as I understood it?)

No. Britain absolutely gained Hong Kong through war and in the subsequent peace deal. The Qing dynasty ceded Hong Kong Island in 1841–1842 as a consequence of losing the First Opium War. It's actually a good example that may apply to Ukraine, whereupon Ukraine may be forced to give up Crimea in a peace deal, but perhaps a hundred or so years later as the world changes, where like with the post-WW2 collapse of British global power, Russia has declined from its global strength, and Ukraine gets Crimea back.

By the mid 2100s Russia must be a mostly depopulated husk, with much of the east, including Vladivostok being regained by China.

 

[Admiral Beez]

View: https://youtu.be/7giYIisLuaA?si=wJzu5A6L29gPrMnZ
I haven't seen this shared yet, in it he shows that European defence companies shares have climbed about 30% or more the last couple of months while US ones have dropped.

With its massive losses in Ukraine taken into account, I'd say Europe (without the US) is now more than capable of defending itself against a conventional attack. With planned acquisitions, Poland could soon have over 1,000 modern tanks, making it one of Europe's strongest land forces. The AFU have blunted the Russian spear to the benefit of Europe.

What Europe is lacking, up to now is the willingness to enter the fight directly in Ukraine.

 

[drgondog]

Hi Bill, I don't see you as a rightwing nutcase. I respect you as a person.

However, the article you posted here is offensive to me as a European citizen and pertinent untrue. The perceived censorship in Europe is a myth made up by MAGA like so many untruths they shout. I will not go into details on this article as I would have to ban myself for getting too political. But the content is so distant from the truth, I would not even know where to start. Vance's remarks were particularity rich for a government who just banned journalists for calling the "Gulf of Mexico" by the name the whole world uses. I'll leave it at that as I don't want to spawn another very dangerous discussion.

At other members: don't follow this thread of the discussion. It will end in tears.

Marcel - thank you for the thoughtful reply. It is refreshing to debate different perspectives. BTW if you wish to get political, take it off line. I promise not to be offended. In fact I offer the same to anyone that wishes to castigate me for heresy.

So, here are the topics to take off-line.

First, as an example. Trump's Executive Order re: Gulf of America (primarily for specific International Treaty provisions to identify and claim the US Continental Shelf as well as by pass questionable orders by Previous POTUS to ban offshore drilling) is in fact an Executive Power - which BTW can be reversed in the future. He banned AP for repeated refusal to acknowledge the facts that even progressive orgs like Google acknowledged.

Second, what exactly do you feel Vance stated that was not true or 'misinformation'? In which countries do you feel that the People's Rights are supreme in focus by their respective governments? I saw Zero over the last four years.

Did I miss Germany canceling an election? Or citizen jailed for hate speech for denouncing acts of terror by Muslim zealots, or the Netherlands government trying to suppress a farmer's mass revolt, Canada jailing truckers when they defied orders to cease 'protesting' - or all of EU (and SEATO) jailing persons who refused a Covid jab? Or force military and commercial business to fire employees that refused a risky vaccine.

Or miss my former POTUS shutting down business, firing soldiers that refused the jab, or forcing infants to be vaccinated, or shutting down religious gatherings, shutting down schools? How about 'trust the science', 'Covid Vac will prevent Covid, 'face masks will protect you, Covid Vac perfectly safe and better than natural immunity, Ivermectin has no value, there are no dangerous side effects, etc. Imbedding FBI agents in Meta/FB and Twitter to ban unapproved speech or issuance of contrary facts on a public forum?

Did I miss the recent threat to fine and suppress speech on Twitter/X for not controlling a non-official message or comments?

Did I miss every nation's leaders, in single mind and chorus, stating the above to their citizens - and executing even more draconian punishments for those that questioned the 'official narrative'.

I think not, and it is clear that much of the above is implied in Vance's remarks.

Now to Trump suppressing journalists -
Attendance in the Press Room is a privilege not a 1st Amendment Right. AP is welcome to participate in all public venues, ask any question they wish without censorship. They may express any opinions. The Press Spokesperson has reminded the gathering to question but behave. The question was answered. AP did not behave and continued to press their point, after making their opinions heard. Press Room not obligated to continue the exchange and was very patient - until she wasn't.

Trump is not obligated to answer or invite AP back. The AP dismissal was simply an example of FAFO. Trump has answered more questions by friendly and hostile journalists in the first 45 days than the former POTUS fielded all last year. More hostile views wrapped in a question are answered daily and publicly - and no scripted exchanges occur. Those journalists are invited to ask what they want and can expect an answer - but should not expect the freedom to bully her when they don't like or accept an answer. Compare.

With Respect,

Bill

 

[EwenS]

No. Britain absolutely gained Hong Kong through war and in the subsequent peace deal. The Qing dynasty ceded Hong Kong Island in 1841–1842 as a consequence of losing the First Opium War. It's actually a good example that may apply to Ukraine, whereupon Ukraine may be forced to give up Crimea in a peace deal, but perhaps a hundred or so years later as the world changes, where like with the post-WW2 collapse of British global power, Russia has declined from its global strength, and Ukraine gets Crimea back. By the 2100s Russia must be a mostly depopulated husk.

There were three parts to Hong Kong as it stood in 1984.

1. Hong Kong island - ceded to Britain by China in perpetuity in 1842 after the First Opium War.
2. The southern part of the Kowloon Peninsula - ceded to Britain by China in 1860 after the Second Opium War
3. The New Territories - held under a 99 year lease signed in 1898 (Britain leaned on a weakened China to get that land to protect its existing interests in Hong Kong and elsewhere in China and to provide room for an already expanding population). Initially very rural it became more urbanised in the 1970s.

The problem in 1984 was that the New Territories constituted about 86% of the land mass of the Hong Kong colony, and was the area in which approx 50% of the population lived. It was completely integrated withvthe other two parts. And those extra bodies couldn't be accomodated on either Hong Kong Island and / or the southern part of the Kowloon Peninsula.

So as the end of the lease on the New Territories approached, the only practical approach was to negotiate the transfer of the whole colony back to the PRC, while extracting as many concessions as possible from the PRC to allow allow life in the colony to go on as it had been doing.

 

[Marcel]

Marcel - thank you for the thoughtful reply. It is refreshing to debate different perspectives. BTW if you wish to get political, take it off line. I promise not to be offended. In fact I offer the same to anyone that wishes to castigate me for heresy.

So, here are the topics to take off-line.

First, as an example. Trump's Executive Order re: Gulf of America (primarily for specific International Treaty provisions to identify and claim the US Continental Shelf as well as by pass questionable orders by Previous POTUS to ban offshore drilling) is in fact an Executive Power - which BTW can be reversed in the future. He banned AP for repeated refusal to acknowledge the facts that even progressive orgs like Google acknowledged.

Second, what exactly do you feel Vance stated that was not true or 'misinformation'? In which countries do you feel that the People's Rights are supreme in focus by their respective governments? I saw Zero over the last four years.

Did I miss Germany canceling an election? Or citizen jailed for hate speech for denouncing acts of terror by Muslim zealots, or the Netherlands government trying to suppress a farmer's mass revolt, Canada jailing truckers when they defied orders to cease 'protesting' - or all of EU (and SEATO) jailing persons who refused a Covid jab? Or force military and commercial business to fire employees that refused a risky vaccine.

Or miss my former POTUS shutting down business, firing soldiers that refused the jab, or forcing infants to be vaccinated, or shutting down religious gatherings, shutting down schools? How about 'trust the science', 'Covid Vac will prevent Covid, 'face masks will protect you, Covid Vac perfectly safe and better than natural immunity, Ivermectin has no value, there are no dangerous side effects, etc. Imbedding FBI agents in Meta/FB and Twitter to ban unapproved speech or issuance of contrary facts on a public forum?

Did I miss the recent threat to fine and suppress speech on Twitter/X for not controlling a non-official message or comments?

Did I miss every nation's leaders, in single mind and chorus, stating the above to their citizens - and executing even more draconian punishments for those that questioned the 'official narrative'.

I think not, and it is clear that much of the above is implied in Vance's remarks.

Now to Trump suppressing journalists -
Attendance in the Press Room is a privilege not a 1st Amendment Right. AP is welcome to participate in all public venues, ask any question they wish without censorship. They may express any opinions. The Press Spokesperson has reminded the gathering to question but behave. The question was answered. AP did not behave and continued to press their point, after making their opinions heard. Press Room not obligated to continue the exchange and was very patient - until she wasn't.

Trump is not obligated to answer or invite AP back. The AP dismissal was simply an example of FAFO. Trump has answered more questions by friendly and hostile journalists in the first 45 days than the former POTUS fielded all last year. More hostile views wrapped in a question are answered daily and publicly - and no scripted exchanges occur. Those journalists are invited to ask what they want and can expect an answer - but should not expect the freedom to bully her when they don't like or accept an answer. Compare.

With Respect,

Bill

I will send you a PM

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

If any of our European (and apparently some American) friends on this forum are upset or insulted by what the current POTUS is doing, you don't understand what a Constitutional Republic is, and I'm not being condescending or insulting, merely stating fact.

Actually, you are, because you're implying that anyone who disagrees with you is ignorant.

Furthermore, I don't see him upholding the Constitution, but upending it.

But hey, support who and what you want. Just don't expect a free pass on it. POTUS has sold out the Ukrainians. Maybe you're okay with that. I'm not. It harms American interest, it harms the free world which looks to us for leadership in a world that's pretty dangerous, and it harms innocent people who did nothing to merit death and destruction by invasion.

 

[special ed]

As one of the older members, I attended school in the 40s through 50s, then USAF 1 1/2 active plus 4 1/2 reserve. Therefore, the old schools taught the constitution through Civics classes & history. My father was is law enforcement and not required in WW2 as he was classed as a fingerprint expert. Long before computers. One of the things I always found curious was "the Gulf of Mexico". I live on the North American continent along with the United States of Mexico and Canada. The continent to my south is South America, while in between is Central America, so it always was obvious to me that the Gulf of Mexico should have been known as the Gulf of America, similar to the Indian Ocean or China Sea or Sea Of Japan named for their nearby countries or continents. I just didn't have a loud enough voice. I also feel the invader of Ukraine must leave before final peace is achieved.
Just my thoughts - I usually just sit in the room quietly.