Allied Fighter vs Fighter: Is it really necessary ???

[Juha]

Hello Renrich
on Spits, many seems to be unware that Mk VIIs/VIIIs had extra internal tankage (also Mk XIV had, being based on Mk VIII, but thirsty Griffon negated rangewise that). Also many late Spits had rear fuselage tank like that in P-51, so Merlin powered late production Spits had longer range than Spit VC.

Juha

 

[Juha]

To add to my last message
- Aviation (Aviation - Aircraft of World War II - Warbird Forums)
- - Longest Spitfire raid of WWII. (http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/longest-spitfire-raid-wwii-16182.html)

Wildcat 12-30-2008 05:57 AM
Longest Spitfire raid of WWII.

On the 27th of Nov 1944, five spitfires from No. 549 sqn RAF and 2 spitfires from No.1 Fighter Wing, RAAF in conjuction with 4 B-25's from No. 2 sqn RAAF plus an ASR Catalina, attacked and destroyed a Japanese radar station at Cape Lore on Portuguese Timor. The raid was a round trip of some 850 miles taking 4.5 hours. The Spitfires were first to attack carrying out strafing runs on the installations resulting in the radar tower being destroyed. The B-25's then destroyed the remaining buildings once the spitfires were clear.
The spitfire pilots flying Mk.VIII's, were -

No.1 Fighter Wing
G/Capt "Black Jack" Walker DSO, RAAF
W/Cdr R Wilkinson OBE, DFM and Bar, C de G. RAF

No. 549 sqn RAF
S/Ldr E Bocock DFC
F/Lt W Wedd
F/Lt L Webster
W/Off A Franks
W/Off J Beaton

At the time the Australian media claimed this as the longest operational raid ever conducted by Spitfires in any theatre. My question is, is this claim accurate? (What of PR spits) and if so, did any other operations surpass this?

Juha 12-30-2008 11:15 AM

Hello
PR Spits were able to cover Berlin, at least, from GB.

Longest Spitfire escort mission in ETO I'm aware was that made by 131 Sqn on 11 Aug 44 to La Pallice, 690mls and took 3 hours 50 min. They were flying Spit VIIs.

Juha

 

[Milosh]

Does anyone know how the British arrived at the range of their a/c?

 

[tail end charlie]

Does anyone know how the British arrived at the range of their a/c?

I just read the link on another thread about operation vengeance, the total flight plan was 1000 miles and the P38 was selected because it was beyond the range of the wildcats and corsairs, I know the operation was performed at low altitude but it shows "range" range depends on how high you fly and how fast.

It is easy to say that if you cant reach the fight you arnt in it, the same applies to rate of climb as well as range, the wildcat may have been a great plane when at altitude but its rate of climb would have seen it looking at everyone flying overhead in the BofB. Both the hurricane/spitfire and wildcat/hellcat/corsair were fine aircraft in their time designed to do different jobs. The wildcat was ordered by the french but none arrived before France surrendered. If the Europes fate rested in the wildcat/hellcat/corsair then the war in Europe would be over before they arrived, if you cant reach the fight you arnt in it that also applies to operational development.

 

[Glider]

Its been mentioned a couple of times but its worth repeating that the Spitfire had the potential to be a good long ranged fighter. In Oct 1944 two Mk IX's were fitted with 2 x 60 gallon drop tanks together with the additional tank behind the pilot and flew the Atlantic.

Good enough for most missions

The sad thing is that no one tried it in 1943 when it would have made a huge difference

 

[Shortround6]

Something to consider when comparing ranges in the Pacific to ranges in Europe is that it was perfectly feasible to fly at long range cruise settings and optimum altitudes for long distances in the Pacific. No AA guns in the ocean, few if any spotters. OK, a few coast watchers

Radar stations were on known islands and Japanese radar was few and far between

higher "combat" cruise speeds could be used only when in "danger" areas near the target/s.

Over Europe at certain periods of time anytime you were over land you were in a "danger" area. Cruising heights and flight paths had to take flak concentrations into account. Your flight path was spotted and plotted as soon as you neared the coast on the way in. Cruise speeds had to be kept higher than optimum for range in order to keep from giving a defending/intercepting fighters too high a speed advantage in a surprise "bounce".

It was possible to cruise a MK V Spitfire at 225 true airspeed using 29 Imp gal of fuel an hour at 10,000ft but such a speed and altitude would be almost useless over enemy territory. Long range or ferry speeds were even lower. At a maximum continuous cruise speed of 331 mph true at 10,000 ft the Spit burned 70 imp gallons an hour. Obviously the Spitfire isn't going very far on the normal 88 Imp gal internal tanks. Full combat power (16lbs boost) used 150 gallons an hour.

A problem for fighters escorting bombers is that the at least some of the fighters had to fly higher than the bombers to keep the interceptors from climbing above the bombers and diving down through the formation/s. The fighters also had to be moving faster than the bombers in order to have speed in hand should the enemy show up. They flew a weaving course compared to the bombers so that they actually covered a greater distance at a higher speed than the bombers even though they were in sight of each other the whole time. At least they were supposed to be, clouds and all that
This weaving course and higher speed did absolutely nothing for fuel economy or radius of action.

It is something to consider when trying to figure radius of action for bomber escort compared to straight line range at optimum cruise settings.

 

[RCAFson]

The RAF/FAA/RAAF data cards make an allowance for TO and climb to cruise altitude and then seem to calculate the range based upon the cruise fuel consumption at cruise altitude.

Cruising speeds:

Spitfire VIIItrop: 220 @ 20k ft
Spitfire IX: 220 @ 20k ft
Hurricane I: 212 @ 20k ft
Seafire IILC: 188mph at 5K ft.

FM2:203 @ 15k ft
F4F-4: 213 @ 15k ft
F4U1: 251 @ 20k ft
F6F-3 244 @ 20k ft

P51B
for reference:: 253 @ 20k ft


The P47 mission planner gives the no reserve range with 253 igals of internal fuel as 835 miles at 10k ft @ 220mph or 650 miles at 260mph at 25K ft. If we allow a 50 gallon reserve, this would reduce the range to 700 miles @ 220mph at 10K ft and 540 miles at 260 mph @ 25k ft and we would then add back the distance covered during the climb to cruise, for an estimated range of something like 600 miles @ 25K ft.

 

[Juha]

Hello Shortround
very good analyze.
The 131 Sqn escort mission on 11 Aug 44 to La Pallice, 690mls and took 3 hours 50 min, was as long as one could do in Europe, almost no reserve for combat. Brits calculated that merely the presence of Spit escort would kept possible LW interceptors away from bombers at that stage of war. The internal fuel capacity of Spit VII was the same 123 Imp gal as was that of Spit Mk VIIIs, both could use 30 and 90 Imp gal DT. At least 131 Sqn planes probably didn't have rear fuselage tanks, they were from too early production run.

Juha

 

[fastmongrel]

A Spit IXC serial MK210 was modified at Wright Field Ohio in May 1944 to have an internal fuel load of 161 gallons plus it could carry 2 Mustang drop tanks for a total of 285 gallons. This mod carried its normal armament and flew the Atlantic via Iceland so it was possible to carry the fuel for a deep penetration escort but obviously by this time Mustangs were pouring off the lines so it was not neccessary.

The PR19 could carry 256 gallons internally and could use a 90 gallon slipper tank. I believe they were able to photograph as far as eastern Poland with a bit to spare. There was a 170 gallon slipper tank built for Pacific use but possibly never used the photo makes the Spit look as aerodynamic as a brick.

 

[Hop]

Australian test of Spitfire VIII:

The "ferry condition" label means the tank wasn't jettisoned.

 

[NZTyphoon]

Hi Hop, does the report have the version of the Merlin fitted to the test aircraft?
According to the Pilot's Notes for the Spitfire VII and VIII (AP 1565G H - December 1943)
the figures for the Merlin 63 and 64 were

2650 rpm Weak Mixture
+4lb/sq.in Boost: 71 gal/hr
+2 lb/sq.in Boost: 66 gal/hr
0 lb/sq.in Boost: 60 gal/hr
-2 lb/sq.in Boost:53 gal/hr

2,400 rpm Weak Mixture
+4lb/sq.in Boost: 66 gal/hr
+2 lb/sq.in Boost:61 gal/hr
0 lb/sq.in Boost: 55 gal/hr
-2 lb/sq.in Boost:49 gal/hr

2,200 rpm Weak Mixture
+4lb/sq.in Boost: 61 gal/hr
+2 lb/sq.in Boost:57 gal/hr
0 lb/sq.in Boost: 51 gal/hr
-2 lb/sq.in Boost:45 gal/hr

 

[syscom3]

Something to consider when comparing ranges in the Pacific to ranges in Europe is that it was perfectly feasible to fly at long range cruise settings and optimum altitudes for long distances in the Pacific. No AA guns in the ocean, few if any spotters. OK, a few coast watchers

And NG and Burma has no mountains?

If there was one thing the ETO/MTO didnt have that made the Pacific theater so unusual was the severe weather factors that couldn't be forecast as accurately as in Europe. Many times the aircraft had to fly high, or through thunderstorms with more than a few AC simply never being heard from again.

 

[davebender]

USAAF 31st FG began combat operations with the Spit VIII on Aug 2 1943, over Sicily, where they were used as top cover for their Spit Vs:

Why didn't the USAAF 31st FG operate the P-38? Greater endurance and performance was acceptable at low level where Luftwaffe strike aircraft were operating.

 

[Glider]

At a guess
a) because they wanted some high cover
b) Agility against single engined fighters

 

[davebender]

Against what? German strike aircraft weren't flying at 30,000 feet.

 

[Glider]

Maybe they just recognised that the best way to escort a Mk V is with a Mk IX. After all the extra range of the P38 is no good if the aircraft your escorting only goes a fraction of the distance. The ability to climb is important for a high cover as is the ability to dogfight.

 

[Milosh]

Why didn't the USAAF 31st FG operate the P-38? Greater endurance and performance was acceptable at low level where Luftwaffe strike aircraft were operating.

There wasn't enough P-38s to go around.

 

[davebender]

I find that difficult to believe.

Historical P-38 production.
I have omitted photo recon variants plus the single P-38K.
US Warplanes
527 x P-38F. 1942
1,082 x P-38G. 1942.
601 x P-38H. 1942.
2,970 x P-38J. 1943.
About 5,000 P-38 fighter variants were produced during 1942 and 1943.

Operation Torch OOB.
XII Fighter Command, Western Air Command, 08.11.1942
Six P-38 squadrons participated in Operation Torch. Why weren't they moved to Malta for the invasion of Sicily, then moved to Sicily prior to the Salerno invasion?

 

[Hop]

does the report have the version of the Merlin fitted to the test aircraft?

Merlin 66.

 

[RCAFson]

I find that difficult to believe.

Historical P-38 production.
I have omitted photo recon variants plus the single P-38K.
US Warplanes
527 x P-38F. 1942
1,082 x P-38G. 1942.
601 x P-38H. 1942.
2,970 x P-38J. 1943.
About 5,000 P-38 fighter variants were produced during 1942 and 1943.

Operation Torch OOB.
XII Fighter Command, Western Air Command, 08.11.1942
Six P-38 squadrons participated in Operation Torch. Why weren't they moved to Malta for the invasion of Sicily, then moved to Sicily prior to the Salerno invasion?

The P38 wasn't considered up to par for combat in Europe. That's the simple truth of it, and here's what the USAAF had to say:

a. For a general combination of climb, range, endurance, speed, altitude and fire power, the P-38F is the best production line fighter tested to date at this station. Types tested include the P-47, P-51, P-40F and P-39D-1.

b. The allowable maximum diving speed is not as great as desired for combat operations.

c. At speeds above allowable diving speeds especially over twenty-thousand (20,000) feet, violent vibrations from tail buffeting are experienced.

g. While the rate of climb is superior to all other types tested to date, this is not as great as required, especially below twenty-thousand (20,000) feet, and all excess weight in the structure and installations not vital to combat operations should be reduced or eliminated whenever possible

i. The guns will not feed properly during maneuvers which create a pull of greater than 3-1/2 G's.

P-38F Tactical Trials

The Spitfire VIII could easily outclimb, out turn, outdive and (not so easily) out run the P38 in Mid 1943, and here's the real kicker, the Spitfire VIII probably had more range on internal fuel. The USAAF flew the Spitfire VIII because it was the best fighter in the Allied inventory, at that time, and the only one that could meet the Luftwaffe's best on equal terms.

Sources:
Spitfire Mk VIII Performance Testing
P-38 Performance Trials

FINAL REPORT ON TACTICAL SUITABILITY OF THE P-38F TYPE AIRPLANE 6 March 1943:
P-38F Tactical Trials

performance evaluation of the P38:
The P-38 Lightning

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-38/p-38-tactical-chart.jpg