dreadnought
Airman
the second set of pictures look similar to an me262
Anglo-Americans VS Soviets in Dogfight?
- Thread starter comiso90
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Not really
Several years ago I read an account of this action in a book I had. It's been to long ago to give you the source but what you heard is pretty much what was in the book The P-38's were flying ground support and accidntly attacked the Russians who called in air support. A dogfight developed and at least one P-38 shot down a Russian. Supposedly the Russians wanted the American flight leader shot as they allegedly did theirs.
That incident definitely happened, in contrast to the Khozedhub friendly fire incidents which are fuzzier AFAIK. An appendix in Seidl "Stalin's Eagles" reproduces the 82nd FG's action report of the mission, and draft of apology letter by the 15th AF which seems to reflect information from the Soviets about the incident. The P-38's attacked a Soviet column advancing in Yugoslavia, November 7, 1944, killing a Soviet Lt. Gen among other casualties and damage. Yak-9's came to the aid of the column. One P-38 was downed immediately and another after the Americans realized their mistake and were trying to withdraw. Meantime the P-38's had claimed 2 Yak-9's destroyed, 2 probable and 1 damaged; Seidl names two Soviet pilots killed in the incident and one who parachuted.
The draft says the 82nd's commander had been relieved of command, but there's a hand written comment, "NO!" in the margin next to it. The Soviet flight leader was their 8th leading ace of the war, AI Koldunov, 46 victories. He claimed three of the four P-38's the Soviets thought they shot down. He definitely wasn't shot for it. He eventually became the chief of the Soviet air defence service, the PVO, in the 1980's. Interestingly though his career ended over another East-West incident: he was forced into retirement after the Mathias Rust incident in 1987 (the young German who managed to land his Cessna 172 in Red Square).
Joe
- Thread starter
- #25
Yeah, that would be pretty cool.
- Thread starter
- #28
yeah... what are they doing? .. the last one was on the Bismark. They are looseing their focus. The writers need to consult this site!
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
I have to agree fellas, Im alittle let down by this show.... There are so very many well documented dogfights throughout WW2 and theyre talking about sinking ships...
They also use the same digital scene of a certain plane numerous times...
I still like watching it tho...
They also use the same digital scene of a certain plane numerous times...
I still like watching it tho...
- Thread starter
- #30
Good points about Dogfights. Tivo material. Agree they should stick to air battles and leave the sea battles to another show. Sea battles are very cool to watch, given the graphics work they do. But Les hit it on the head, they need to get back to the dogfights. Would love to see them do McCambell over the Phillipine Sea or Sept. 15th, 1940 over London. Now those would be cool. Or the raid on Schwienfort (SP).
Another show on great sea battles would be a great idea.
Another show on great sea battles would be a great idea.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Agreed 100% Tim...
Erich Hartman in the "Blonde Knight of Germany" describes a mission where he and his wingman spotted two formations of allied fighters, one higher than the other (P-51 higher - Yaks lower) and both where probally eyeballing each other when Erich and wingy in tow dove through them firing. He pressed to the deck and as he was egressing the locale he observed both formations mixing it up and he got clean away.
Procrastintor
Senior Airman
(Talking about the gun cam) The first one looks more like a Hellcat than a Mustang...
I haven't heard of any dogfights between the RAF and the Red Air Force but have heard of a small number of clashes between the Red Air Force and the USAAF over Czechoslavakia where apparently the Russian's would harass American planes even when recognised as friendlies. Also I have heard of the USAAF shooting down friendly RAF planes down by mistake, I am not having a go at the Americans for this but they still have a reputation for doing this in the U.K. In the Jeff Ethell P38 book there is also an account of P38's being attacked by a lone P51, The P38 Pilots on this occasion shot down the P51 which was believed to have been operated by a German unit operating captured Allied aircraft, the P51 was as a matter of interest still wearing it's American Markings. The Luftwaffe is said to have used American aircraft in American marking's to infiltrate bomber formations.
Shortround6
Major General
Blue on Blue ( or even Dark Blue on Light Blue) happened to everybody. The British shot down the C-54 carrying 200 sets of dive flaps for P-38s already in England thinking it was a Fw 200.
I doubt that very much. IIRC the 332nd Fighter Group shot down a P-51(D?) with Luftwaffe markings. Anyways, Italians used a captured P-38 with
the original USAAF markings to 'tail' allied bomber formations. Bubi Hartmann witnessed P-51's LA-7's dishing it out.
I think it was supposed to have been KG200 that used captured B17's to shadow American formations, but I have no idea of the truth behind this story or even whether it was likely to have happened or not. Perhaps it was something that was tried as an experiment or that a captured B17 just happened to be in the air near an American formation, I really don't know.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
From Wiki;
The unit also carried out a variety of special missions, like parachuting spies behind enemy lines, operating radar-jamming aircraft, carrying out long-range transport flights to Japan, clandestine bombing missions and infiltrating American bomber formations with captured aircraft in an attempt to spread confusion. However, most of the information concerning these missions comes from a single POW and is doubted by several aviation history researchers. On 1 December 1943 a B-17 was sighted with the letters "D" above another identification letter "B". It also had a square marking, that of the 303rd Bomb Group. This was the identity of B-17F-111-BO 42-30604 Badger Beauty V, actually from the 350th Bomb Group of the "Bloody Century" 100 BG, which used the "square-D" tail marking in service. This machine was captured but it was never repaired or used by the Luftwaffe. When re-captured the B-17 was preserved in Boeing's museum, but is not known to still be in existence in the 21st century. On the same day, a lone B-24 joined a bomber formation from the 44th Bomb Group. It was reported to have been a machine carrying the markings of a 392nd Bomb Group aircraft. However this unit did not become operational until 9 December.
During one of those missions, on 27 June 1944, a B-17 of KG 200, with Luftwaffe Geschwaderkennung code A3+FB, landed in Manises airport (Valencia) and was interned by the Spanish government.
The unit also carried out a variety of special missions, like parachuting spies behind enemy lines, operating radar-jamming aircraft, carrying out long-range transport flights to Japan, clandestine bombing missions and infiltrating American bomber formations with captured aircraft in an attempt to spread confusion. However, most of the information concerning these missions comes from a single POW and is doubted by several aviation history researchers. On 1 December 1943 a B-17 was sighted with the letters "D" above another identification letter "B". It also had a square marking, that of the 303rd Bomb Group. This was the identity of B-17F-111-BO 42-30604 Badger Beauty V, actually from the 350th Bomb Group of the "Bloody Century" 100 BG, which used the "square-D" tail marking in service. This machine was captured but it was never repaired or used by the Luftwaffe. When re-captured the B-17 was preserved in Boeing's museum, but is not known to still be in existence in the 21st century. On the same day, a lone B-24 joined a bomber formation from the 44th Bomb Group. It was reported to have been a machine carrying the markings of a 392nd Bomb Group aircraft. However this unit did not become operational until 9 December.
During one of those missions, on 27 June 1944, a B-17 of KG 200, with Luftwaffe Geschwaderkennung code A3+FB, landed in Manises airport (Valencia) and was interned by the Spanish government.
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