Anglo-Americans VS Soviets in Dogfight?

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by comiso90, Feb 7, 2007.

  1. comiso90

    comiso90 Active Member

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    Years ago, I read an account in which some P-38s were flying ground support for Russian troops around the Elbe. The "Front" shifted and apparently the American planes inadvertently attacked Russian troops.

    YAKs were called in and a large dogfight ensued.

    Has anyone else heard of this? I've worn out Google looking.

    I'd like to read about other engagements when Yanks and Brits tangled with Ruskies in WW2. There has to be a few instances. It's not difficult to imagine that a western front combatant may not be familiar with eastern Front equipment.

    Thanks
     
  2. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    We had a thread here that talked about that. I will have to see if I can try and find it.
     
  3. comiso90

    comiso90 Active Member

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    thanks for the effort
     
  4. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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  5. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus Active Member

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    Supposedly, Ivan Kozhedub shot down 2 P-51 Mustangs, but the evidence is scarce, and the so-called "gun camera" footage has in some circles, been branded unverifiable..

    Copied from Pilots Ivan Nikitovich Kozhedub.

    During WWII, Ivan Kozhedub flew 326 combat missions, took part in 126 aerial combats, and achieved 62 kills (in them 22 FW 190 and 18 Ju 87).
    Apart from these 62 victories, Ivan Kozhedub also was forced to shoot down two U.S. P-51 Mustangs that mistakenly attacked his La-7 on one occasion. Both these P-51 losses have been verified by USAAF sources.
     

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  6. timshatz

    timshatz Active Member

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    Agree with you the gun cams are sketchy. First one doesn't prove anything. Good shots of what looks to be a P51 turning followed by an explosion. Would need to see the shots after the explosion to confirm they are from the same film.

    Second one shows a P51. Definitely. But it still has drop tanks. Never heard of a P51 going into a fight intentionally with drop tanks on. Heard of them getting jumped that way, but not going into a fight that way. One would think Ivan got jumped and downed the 51s in self defense. Secondly, I am not sure the aircraft is a P51 or an F51. Same aircraft but different time periods. In short, do not know when the shots were taken. The 51 looks like both a late WW2 and Korean war aircraft. Anybody want to chime in on this?

    Lastly, I did not know the Russians carried gun films. Thought that did not happen until the Jet period. Again, Anybody know about that and can contribute?
     
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  7. comiso90

    comiso90 Active Member

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    One way to bring out detail is to adjust the levels and sharpen the pixels. It looks like it has a radial engine to me and the the wings look different.

    I'm not familiar with that mustang variation..... LOL..

    Bottom line is that there isn't much information to draw from but it doesn't look like a mustang in these shots... P-47?
     

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  8. timshatz

    timshatz Active Member

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    It does look like a radial. Short nosed one at that. Something like a P-36 or Lagg 5.

    Not enough detail to be sure about anything.
     
  9. comiso90

    comiso90 Active Member

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    If i had to guess on the markings, I'd say American
     
  10. Gnomey

    Gnomey World Travelling Doctor
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    The first one certainly doesn't look like a P-51 or like a P-47 but the second series the aircraft is almost certainly a P-51.
     
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  11. comiso90

    comiso90 Active Member

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    cu of first series
     

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  12. Udet

    Udet Banned

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    As i have always said since first seeing the photos a while ago...

    I am with Tim regarding the first shots...besides showing a plane that can not be identified the film is meaningless.

    The secong one not 100% isure if the thing is a Mustang though...but it´s either a P-51 B...razorback; does not look like P-51 D with the bubble canopy there but who knows...or another case of more soviet major prime bit time hand picked crap.

    Has anyone noticed the "Zeiss" word on the film?
     
  13. timshatz

    timshatz Active Member

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    "Zeiss"?

    Definitely sounds like the comrades are trying to pull the wool over our eyes. More and more looking like Luftwaffe gun film (if even of American Aircraft).

    "Zeiss"?! Jeez, that's just sloppy. From the Soviets, you'd expect it to be a little better.
     
  14. Glider

    Glider Well-Known Member

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    Silly question but I have never seen any gun camera film from a Russian WW2 fighter, does anyone know if they were fitted with them?
     
  15. JoeB

    JoeB Member

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    Always funny as that film comes up on various fora, how long it takes for somebody to ask that.

    Gun camera photo's are cool. However they have a big weakness: the "chain of custody" (as they'd say on the crime TV shows :) ) is often uncertain (where did it really come from when was it really shot). The coolness sometimes causes people to overlook that issue.

    I would like to know according to what source Kozedhub *himself* claimed to have downed P-51's, a source I hope very close to an original one, like a combat report in Russian archives, before talking about gc films.

    A possible explanation of that film IMHO is that Kozhedhub obtained a German film at some point right after the war, as a souvenir, never having himself claimed that it showed an a/c downed by him in a friendly fire incident (whether or not, as a separate issue, he really had such an incident). Then eventually somebody got it from his family and put it together with that story. Or perhaps the film has no relation to Kozhedhub at all. It certainly doesn't document anything by itself, looks cool though.

    Joe
     
  16. timshatz

    timshatz Active Member

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    As good an explanation as any.
     
  17. comiso90

    comiso90 Active Member

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    Also the "Generatinon Chain". We may be looking at a copy of a copy dubbed to VHS and then frames were exported, printed in a book and then scanned before being saved as a lossy jpeg!

    Perhaps a nearly pristine version of the shots exist in an on-line archive.
     
  18. Udet

    Udet Banned

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    Timsh...i am afraid i did not quite understand what you meant with that...

    Yes, Zeiss, shown upside down on the film...
     
  19. timshatz

    timshatz Active Member

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    Udet, was pointing to the "Zeiss" being German Equipment and the Soviets calling it a Russian Gun Cam. Yes, it is possible an odd camera landed in a Russian Ace's Lap (complete with film) and he used it on his aircraft. But it is more likely that the Soviets just captured some and called it one of their own and thought no-one would notice. The Soviets were famous for moving people in and out of historical pictures and monkeying with film.

    While I might be out on a limb on this thing, I do not give the Comrades the benefit of the doubt. Ever. Don't trust the SOBs.
     
  20. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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