Anglo-Americans VS Soviets in Dogfight?

comiso90

Senior Master Sergeant
3,583
22
Dec 19, 2006
FL
Years ago, I read an account in which some P-38s were flying ground support for Russian troops around the Elbe. The "Front" shifted and apparently the American planes inadvertently attacked Russian troops.

YAKs were called in and a large dogfight ensued.

Has anyone else heard of this? I've worn out Google looking.

I'd like to read about other engagements when Yanks and Brits tangled with Ruskies in WW2. There has to be a few instances. It's not difficult to imagine that a western front combatant may not be familiar with eastern Front equipment.

Thanks
 
Supposedly, Ivan Kozhedub shot down 2 P-51 Mustangs, but the evidence is scarce, and the so-called "gun camera" footage has in some circles, been branded unverifiable..

Copied from Pilots Ivan Nikitovich Kozhedub.

During WWII, Ivan Kozhedub flew 326 combat missions, took part in 126 aerial combats, and achieved 62 kills (in them 22 FW 190 and 18 Ju 87).
Apart from these 62 victories, Ivan Kozhedub also was forced to shoot down two U.S. P-51 Mustangs that mistakenly attacked his La-7 on one occasion. Both these P-51 losses have been verified by USAAF sources.
 

Attachments

  • kozhedub_guncamera.jpg
    kozhedub_guncamera.jpg
    224 KB · Views: 683

timshatz

Chief Master Sergeant
3,912
22
Mar 29, 2006
Phila, Pa
Agree with you the gun cams are sketchy. First one doesn't prove anything. Good shots of what looks to be a P51 turning followed by an explosion. Would need to see the shots after the explosion to confirm they are from the same film.

Second one shows a P51. Definitely. But it still has drop tanks. Never heard of a P51 going into a fight intentionally with drop tanks on. Heard of them getting jumped that way, but not going into a fight that way. One would think Ivan got jumped and downed the 51s in self defense. Secondly, I am not sure the aircraft is a P51 or an F51. Same aircraft but different time periods. In short, do not know when the shots were taken. The 51 looks like both a late WW2 and Korean war aircraft. Anybody want to chime in on this?

Lastly, I did not know the Russians carried gun films. Thought that did not happen until the Jet period. Again, Anybody know about that and can contribute?
 

comiso90

Senior Master Sergeant
3,583
22
Dec 19, 2006
FL
One way to bring out detail is to adjust the levels and sharpen the pixels. It looks like it has a radial engine to me and the the wings look different.

I'm not familiar with that mustang variation..... LOL..

Bottom line is that there isn't much information to draw from but it doesn't look like a mustang in these shots... P-47?
 

Attachments

  • kozhedub_guncamerarv1.jpg
    kozhedub_guncamerarv1.jpg
    28.7 KB · Views: 445
  • kozhedub_guncamerarv2.jpg
    kozhedub_guncamerarv2.jpg
    30.4 KB · Views: 428

timshatz

Chief Master Sergeant
3,912
22
Mar 29, 2006
Phila, Pa
It does look like a radial. Short nosed one at that. Something like a P-36 or Lagg 5.

Not enough detail to be sure about anything.
 

comiso90

Senior Master Sergeant
3,583
22
Dec 19, 2006
FL
cu of first series
 

Attachments

  • kozhedub_guncamerarv3.jpg
    kozhedub_guncamerarv3.jpg
    60 KB · Views: 436

Udet

Banned
1,174
2
Nov 22, 2004
As i have always said since first seeing the photos a while ago...

I am with Tim regarding the first shots...besides showing a plane that can not be identified the film is meaningless.

The secong one not 100% isure if the thing is a Mustang though...but it´s either a P-51 B...razorback; does not look like P-51 D with the bubble canopy there but who knows...or another case of more soviet major prime bit time hand picked crap.

Has anyone noticed the "Zeiss" word on the film?
 

timshatz

Chief Master Sergeant
3,912
22
Mar 29, 2006
Phila, Pa
"Zeiss"?

Definitely sounds like the comrades are trying to pull the wool over our eyes. More and more looking like Luftwaffe gun film (if even of American Aircraft).

"Zeiss"?! Jeez, that's just sloppy. From the Soviets, you'd expect it to be a little better.
 

JoeB

Staff Sergeant
807
43
Nov 24, 2006
As i have always said since first seeing the photos a while ago...


Has anyone noticed the "Zeiss" word on the film?
Always funny as that film comes up on various fora, how long it takes for somebody to ask that.

Gun camera photo's are cool. However they have a big weakness: the "chain of custody" (as they'd say on the crime TV shows :) ) is often uncertain (where did it really come from when was it really shot). The coolness sometimes causes people to overlook that issue.

I would like to know according to what source Kozedhub *himself* claimed to have downed P-51's, a source I hope very close to an original one, like a combat report in Russian archives, before talking about gc films.

A possible explanation of that film IMHO is that Kozhedhub obtained a German film at some point right after the war, as a souvenir, never having himself claimed that it showed an a/c downed by him in a friendly fire incident (whether or not, as a separate issue, he really had such an incident). Then eventually somebody got it from his family and put it together with that story. Or perhaps the film has no relation to Kozhedhub at all. It certainly doesn't document anything by itself, looks cool though.

Joe
 

comiso90

Senior Master Sergeant
3,583
22
Dec 19, 2006
FL
Gun camera photo's are cool. However they have a big weakness: the the "chain of custody" (as they'd say on the crime TV shows :) ) is often uncertain (where did it really come from when was it really shot). The coolness sometimes causes people to overlook that issue.

Also the "Generatinon Chain". We may be looking at a copy of a copy dubbed to VHS and then frames were exported, printed in a book and then scanned before being saved as a lossy jpeg!

Perhaps a nearly pristine version of the shots exist in an on-line archive.
 

Udet

Banned
1,174
2
Nov 22, 2004
"Zeiss"?

Definitely sounds like the comrades are trying to pull the wool over our eyes. More and more looking like Luftwaffe gun film (if even of American Aircraft).

"Zeiss"?! Jeez, that's just sloppy. From the Soviets, you'd expect it to be a little better.

Timsh...i am afraid i did not quite understand what you meant with that...

Yes, Zeiss, shown upside down on the film...
 

timshatz

Chief Master Sergeant
3,912
22
Mar 29, 2006
Phila, Pa
Udet, was pointing to the "Zeiss" being German Equipment and the Soviets calling it a Russian Gun Cam. Yes, it is possible an odd camera landed in a Russian Ace's Lap (complete with film) and he used it on his aircraft. But it is more likely that the Soviets just captured some and called it one of their own and thought no-one would notice. The Soviets were famous for moving people in and out of historical pictures and monkeying with film.

While I might be out on a limb on this thing, I do not give the Comrades the benefit of the doubt. Ever. Don't trust the SOBs.
 

Users who are viewing this thread