April 24, 1944 Battle over Munich - deep dive - claims, awards and losses

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by drgondog, Sep 7, 2011.

  1. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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  2. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    and I will as others cross check with LW references and claims/losses . . . . looking forward to everyone's findings
     
  3. Rivet

    Rivet Member

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    Using the United States Strategic Bombing Survey might be useful to the pedantic effort. I've found information in those records (aircraft production records) that could not be matched for factuality elsewhere, they are from the actual factory records. Varius other record aspects might be useful to an effort to describe military losses. Regards
     
  4. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    Not in this case Rivet.
     
  5. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    good source Bill, please add for LW credit : 1345 hrs, Feldwebel Hans Müller (later an ace) of 2./JG 301 shot down a P-51 over Ebersberger Forest, his white 5 was damaged in this air combat with this P-51 and force landed at München-Riem at 1355hrs. so add the claim and then more for the downing of his own A/C.
     
  6. Glider

    Glider Well-Known Member

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    I didn't expect to see any B17F bombers at this stage of the war. Thanks to everyone who is looking into this, it should be good.
     
  7. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    #7 drgondog, Sep 7, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2011
    Erich - all the losses are specific to the KUJ reports per location. Entirely possible Mueller is one of the 5 or six 109 pilots vying for the three Mustangs shot down ~ 25 mi east of Munich in the 1345 timeframe. That IS the probable time for Hinman (357) and Norman/Hillman (355 flying together) but all seem to have gone down on a north to south axis through n.Muhldorf to s.Muhldorf line.

    The Ebersburger Forest is in the right direction but 15+ miles short - still a possible match.

    As to adding him as a 'victim' - the LW as you know recorded ships with <60% as only damaged. What do the records show? If the a/c was written off I will definitely add it

    Having said all this I think I have Mueller in the bottom table? I will check to make sure.

    You are right - I missed Hans Muller JG301 - will fix -just added to my data base and will update tomorrow.
     
  8. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    Lol Glider - F's were still flying right through VE Day.. Faster, carry same bomb load - just kept swapping engines to keep em flying.
     
  9. Glider

    Glider Well-Known Member

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    I live and learn
     
  10. Snautzer01

    Snautzer01 Well-Known Member

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    In a mixed flight of a b17 formation speed faster wouldnt have been that important?
     
  11. 1LTCAP

    1LTCAP New Member

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    #11 1LTCAP, May 6, 2012
    Last edited: May 7, 2012
    good evening gentlemen,

    i'm new to this site. i was doing a google search of air battles, and stumbled here. in specific, the battle over munich caught my attention. i was/am looking for something to write a set up for aces high, and this battle would fit in i feel.
    in one of the threads(noteworthy battles of WW2) there is a link with much useful information. it is, however somewhat lacking some info i'd like for my setup. i haven't found anything concerning where the allied bombers, and various fighters launched from, nor for the luftwaffe.
    while there is an image of an overlay, there is no map to go with it, which would be VERY helpful.

    could someone steer me to a map of the areas of battle?

    i apologize for bumping this thread, but for some reason i'm just not finding any further information on this.

    thank you all!!!!!

    john
     
  12. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    Hi John! Welcome to the forum. Bill can give your more info on the Allied bases and Erich can give the LW bases. Or, if you know what LW units were engaged, you can find thier bases here....

    The Luftwaffe, 1933-45
     
  13. fastmongrel

    fastmongrel Well-Known Member

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    No need to apologise this was an interesting thread that didnt run its full course. Hopefully your bump will remind the researchers.

    Oh and welcome to the forum
     
  14. 1LTCAP

    1LTCAP New Member

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    thank you sir. i will get around to doing a proper introduction soon.

    i can't believe all this time, and i never knew about this forum.
     
  15. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    You are absolutely right, but in the case of Wing 41-B for this mission they would have been delighted with an "all B-17F' formation.

    They got strung out on the right hand side of 41-A in a new tactic to put a lot more firepower firing forward - but it backfired because every left turn in the course threw them further behind because Bob Travis leading the 41-A wouldn't slow down. As a result, 41-B was nearly 10 miles behind 41-A and the rest of the trailing 1st BD was flying formation tightly in trail - thus 41-B was islolated and could not 'slide back and insert' into the Task Force.

    Had the 41-B been all B-17F they could have maintained their position by speeding up the extra 5mph TAS in the left turns.
     
  16. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    John - if you want to focus on just the 1st TF/1BD (all the Munich area targets and area of the biggest battle) that will tell you where to launch from (i.e Bassingbourn for 91BG, Thurleigh 306Bg, Grafton Underwood 305th BG, etc and for FG's the 4th Swept past Stuttgart and returned short of Ulm, the 355th from Steeple Morden arrived near Augsburg, and the 357th from Leiston arrived 10 minutes later just east of Augsburg, north of Munich)..

    Don Caldwell's new Day Fighters In Defense of the Reich has a detailed map showing most of the LW Gruppe airfield locations for the engaging fighters on page 275.

    Let me know if you got my 'stuff' from 1TF maps and reports
     
  17. cimmex

    cimmex Member

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    Did the bombers really travel with max speed? So every single plane can speed up if necessary during turns.
    Regards
    Cimmex
     
  18. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    Not in formation. The formation speed was limited to the slowest 'healthy' B-17 or B-24. The problem was not all engines operated to the same standard. A standard procedure for 8th AF would call for an early return to base for a ship whose supercharger failed, or an engine would not hold manifold pressure, etc - before the formation assembled and proceeded on the mission.

    A fully functioning average B-17G could cruise with a full 5,000 (average 'max') bomb load at 155-160 TAS at 26,000 feet but many ships on the lowest acceptable flight performance condition was at 150TAS, hence the slow down.
     
  19. cimmex

    cimmex Member

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    Sounds reasonable but had nothing to do with the model F, G or whatever. German pilots were ordered to return when a technical problem of a single plane would weaken the performance of the whole group.
    Regards
    Cimmex
     
  20. 1LTCAP

    1LTCAP New Member

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    i was reading that. on the one hand, i can understand why the flight lead didn't want to slow, but on the other hand i also feel he could have made a judgement call, and slowed at least a small amount in order to let 41b catch back up. this would have served both flights, due to the increased firepower.

    that all said......you guys are great........nearly instant response to a new guy that didn't even introduce himself properly, but came in asking questions.

    a quickie......
    my name's john. i'm in nj, and am an active member of the nj wing civil air patrol. lived here most of my life. father(although i never knew him) and uncle were army, stationed at the clementon, and lumberton nike missile bases respectively.

    i've been an aviation nut as long as i can remember, liking pretty much anything with wings and a loud engine. :D my preference is ww2 aircraft, closely followed by ww1.

    what i am looking for this information for, is what we call "FSO", or friday night squad ops, in aces high. it is a combat sim, i'm sure you've heard of. we take air battles from the different theaters of operation, and try to set up conditions as close to what they may have been for the real heros on all sides, and recreate it in our own cartoon world.
    when i found the battle over munich mentioned here, THAT seemed like something that we could learn a little from, and have our combat at the same time.


    thanks guys!!! i'm glad i found this forum, and hope to be able to contribute to decent discussions.

    john
     
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