Australia should have manufactured the Miles M20. It was perfect for the CBI and the Pacific.

[Kevin J]

Although it's performance isn't great for Europe. It can equal the speed of the Oscar and Zero, could out dive them, and had as much range. With individual exhaust ejectors faster. It's predecessor, the Master, was used in Turkey, Egypt and South Africa, so I assume it can withstand the Tropics. With a two speed engine able to compete at all altitudes up to 30k feet. So what do you guys think about the Aussies building this war winning plane instead of the Boomerang with first deliveries in 1941? As a replacement later in the war, the MB5.

 

[fubar57]

The prototype first flew in late 1940. How long to set up the production lines normally? Then the jigs etc have to be shipped from England. The Merlin production line needs to be set up as well. All this in less than a year?

 

[Kevin J]

The prototype first flew in late 1940. How long to set up the production lines normally? Then the jigs etc have to be shipped from England. The Merlin production line needs to be set up as well. All this in less than a year?

The Mosquito was in service in less than a year, so why not? The Merlin doesn't have to be RR, it can be Packard.

 

[fubar57]

I've always wondered how long it took to ship stuff during the war to different locations. I was thinking from the USA to world-wide. I still haven't found any info but I did find this as I mentioned shipping from England to Oz. Bear in mind that this is a 1914 map but if the ships were convoyed during WW2 the times shouldn't be much different. Looking at 30-40 days shipping...

​

If anyone has the info about WW2 shipping times I was sure like to see it. During my search I also found this book: 381 pages of WW2 Troopships with a history of each...https://history.army.mil/documents/WWII/wwii_Troopships.pdf

 

[Kevin J]

I've always wondered how long it took to ship stuff during the war to different locations. I was thinking from the USA to world-wide. I still haven't found any info but I did find this as I mentioned shipping from England to Oz. Bear in mind that this is a 1914 map but if the ships were convoyed during WW2 the times shouldn't be much different. Looking at 30-40 days shipping...

View attachment 561215
​

If anyone has the info about WW2 shipping times I was sure like to see it. During my search I also found this book: 381 pages of WW2 Troopships with a history of each...https://history.army.mil/documents/WWII/wwii_Troopships.pdf

View attachment 561216

View attachment 561217​

IIRC, it took 6 weeks to get from the UK to Australia by ship. So let's say 3 months during WW2 as you will need to go by convoy. Blueprints, tools, they could all be flown, so let's say 6 days.

 

[tomo pauk]

Although it's performance isn't great for Europe. It can equal the speed of the Oscar and Zero, could out dive them, and had as much range. With individual exhaust ejectors faster. It's predecessor, the Master, was used in Turkey, Egypt and South Africa, so I assume it can withstand the Tropics. With a two speed engine able to compete at all altitudes up to 30k feet. So what do you guys think about the Aussies building this war winning plane instead of the Boomerang with first deliveries in 1941? As a replacement later in the war, the MB5.

Where the Merlins come from?

 

[Kevin J]

Where the Merlins come from?

Either America or UK.

 

[tomo pauk]

Either America or UK.

From America - too late for 1941/early 1942.
From Britain - who does not get the Merlin 20s in 1941/42 so we can ship them to the Oz?

 

[Kevin J]

From America - too late for 1941/early 1942.
From Britain - who does not get the Merlin 20s in 1941/42 so we can ship them to the Oz?

Okay, if the Aussies can manufacture the R-1830 then they can manufacture the Merlin.

 

[Dimlee]

I've always wondered how long it took to ship stuff during the war to different locations. I was thinking from the USA to world-wide. I still haven't found any info but I did find this as I mentioned shipping from England to Oz. Bear in mind that this is a 1914 map but if the ships were convoyed during WW2 the times shouldn't be much different. Looking at 30-40 days shipping...

​

If anyone has the info about WW2 shipping times I was sure like to see it. During my search I also found this book: 381 pages of WW2 Troopships with a history of each...https://history.army.mil/documents/WWII/wwii_Troopships.pdf

Convoy speed is limited by the slowest vessel which in this case would be one of the merchant vessels whose speed just marginally improved in the interwar period, so 1914 map is a good reference for port to port leg. But total door to door time can be much longer as the convoy needs to be assembled and there is an idle time of a shipment in a port which can be congested or short of labor, etc....

P.S. Thanks for the link. Great book to study.

 

[Shortround6]

Okay, if the Aussies can manufacture the R-1830 then they can manufacture the Merlin.

Ummm, no.

Aussies could manufacture R-1830s because...........................

"During 1937, production licences for the type were obtained from North American Aviation along with an accompanying arrangement to domestically produce the Wirraway's Wasp engine from Pratt & Whitney"

If you are tooling up to make a 9 cylinder radial with 5.75in X 5.75in cylinders trying make a 14 cylinder two row engine with 5.5in X 5.5in Cylinders of the same basic design is not that great a stretch.

To make Merlins you need to ability to cast long crankcases and cylinder blocks and heads, you also need the ability to machine/grind that V-12 crankshaft.

There may have been machinery in Oz that could do it, just not in one location. And if it is trying to make Merlins, what else isn't it making.

The Aussies did make Merlins but not until much later. The amount of machinery was not fixed (same amount of machinery in 1939-40 as 1944-45) in most countries.

What countries could produce in 1944-45 is not what they could produce in 1940-41.

The Mosquito was in service in less than a year, so why not? The Merlin doesn't have to be RR, it can be Packard.

Packard built 45 Merlins in 1941, 26 of those were built in Dec.

And then what doesn't get the Packard built Merlins?
The US allotment was going into P-40Fs, anybody believe the M 20 was a better plane than the P-40F?
The UK allotment was going into bombers to start with? and Canadian Hurricanes (most or all of the engines fitted to the Hurricanes were pulled upon arrival in England?)

You have a plane with roughly the same size wing as a P-40 and weighing about as much only with fixed landing gear.

Not at all sure what it actually could have done in combat.

 

[wuzak]

The Mosquito was in service in less than a year, so why not? The Merlin doesn't have to be RR, it can be Packard.

The Mosquito had a ready supply of engines already in production when it was in development.

 

[nuuumannn]

The Boomerang was designed because it was a stop-gap emergency fighter that could be produced from Australia's capability and resources at the time. In order to build a new type with a new engine outside what Australia was producing at the time, why concentrate on what effectively was a stop-gap fighter that would be obsolescent by 1945? Why not go the whole hog and insist on the Spitfire VIII or the Mustang III, P-47 or P-38? it would take as much time to ship parts, technology and establish new capability within existing facilities.

 

[Shortround6]

, why concentrate on what effectively was a stop-gap fighter that would be obsolescent by 1943

fixed it for you

 

[nuuumannn]

A few facts about the Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation, the Wirraway and Boomerang. the CAC was established in 1936 as a private venture company with Lawrence Wackett as its GM, a former Great War fighter pilot with the Australian Flying Corps in WW1.

In 1936, Wackett went on an exploratory mission to the UK, USA and Europe - including Germany to examine establishing manufacturing facilities and an aircraft to build. It was almost expected that the type should be British, so when the North American NA-16 was selected it caused much controversy. A contract for local manufacture was signed in 1938.

The first Wirraway flew for the first time on 27 March 1939 and the first production examples handed to the RAAF in July 1939.

CAC investigated a Wirraway Fighter in November 1938, while the first Wirraway was still under construction. Design work into a concrete fighter was not begun until December 1941 however.

In February 1942, while the final design had been chosen, the purchase of 100 Wirraway Fighters was approved by the Air Board. That month some 200 P-40s had been promised for the RAAF.

The Boomerang's first flight was on 29 May 1942.

 

[nuuumannn]

fixed it for you

Completely agree, SR!

 

[nuuumannn]

My point in the post with the facts about CAC and the Wirraway and Boomerang was that the latter came about because all that work that was put in before WW2 broke out. Exactly where does the Merlin and the M.20 fit in? As I mentioned, the CAC or Government Aircraft Factory producing Beauforts, then Beaufighters would have to stop production of what they were doing, acquire everything needed to build what would have been a useless fighter by the time the first one rolled off the production lines, then produce it. Then what? Made more sense for the RAAF to rely on the Boomerang until the P-40s arrived, rather than building the M.20.

This from Wirraway, Boomerang and CA-15 In Australian Service by Stewart Wilson (Aerospace Publications, 1991); "Lawrence Wackett has long been regarded as a 'Father' of the Australian aircraft industry. he was also regarded as something as a dictatorial tyrant by many, firm and unshakeable in his views and absolutely certain of the validity of those views. His years as CAC's general manager were notable in many ways, but particularly in his influence on the choice of fighter aircraft for the RAAF. The Mustang, Avon Sabre and Mirage were his choice and his influence was such that his opinions also carried great weight with the government and the RAAF. In the case of the sabre and the Mirage other aircraft [the F-104 was considered to be Australia's choice and Lockheed considered the deal to be in the bag, before Wackett intervened and proposed the Mirage] were considerd first choice, but Wackett's opinion prevailed and Australia was undoubtedly the better for it."

Wackett would have laughed the suggestion of the M.20 out of his office!

 

[Kevin J]

From the perspective of "supplier reliability in time of war" then Australia has to buy American as became the case. So agreed.

 

[nuuumannn]

From the perspective of "supplier reliability in time of war" then Australia has to buy American as became the case.

In hindsight, completely. That Wackett chose US was a rebellious step at the time, but was eminently sensible. Interestingly, the Australian government was vociferous toward any opposition to its 'Buy British' credentials and interestingly, little New Zealand next door actually made arms deals and welcomed the USA's presense far sooner than the Australians. What helped was that New Zealand's Prime Minister Peter Fraser was a good friend of FDR's and he and his wife actually holidayed with the Frasers in Wellington during the war - FDR's wife making the journey on her own havng befriended Fraser's wife.

 

[Kevin J]

In hindsight, completely. That Wackett chose US was a rebellious step at the time, but was eminently sensible. Interestingly, the Australian government was vociferous toward any opposition to its 'Buy British' credentials and interestingly, little New Zealand next door actually made arms deals and welcomed the USA's presense far sooner than the Australians. What helped was that New Zealand's Prime Minister Peter Fraser was a good friend of FDR's and he and his wife actually holidayed with the Frasers in Wellington during the war - FDR's wife making the journey on her own havng befriended Fraser's wife.

I guess if Australia had bought the Miles Master then a follow on M20 is possible, although powered by a Hercules not a Merlin.