Australia should have manufactured the Miles M20. It was perfect for the CBI and the Pacific.
- Thread starter Kevin J
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Shortround6
Major General
This is even worse.
The timing is way off, First Miles Master flies in March of 1939. well over a year and closer to two years after the decision to build the NA product and P & W engines in Australia was made.
Bristol had not figured out how to build sleeve valve engines in large quantities for much of 1940 at the earliest.
Swapping the Hercules engine into a small, single engine aircraft was not going to be easy. It was hundreds of pounds heavier than either the R-1830 or the Merlin and while the Merlin needed a radiator it was often placed near or behind the center of gravity on planes that weren't designed to swap engines.
Manufacture of the R-1340 Wasp had started in late 1937, early 1938 using imported parts (soon changed to semi-finished) to get the workmen used to assembling the engines. Progressively more domestic (or commonwealth) sourced parts were introduced. Granted it was peace time but it took until 1940 to get much in the way of results.
The R-1830 was going to be needed for the Beaufort program.
"on 1 July 1939, orders were placed for 180 airframes and spares, with the specially formed Beaufort Division of the Commonwealth Department of Aircraft Production (DAP) "
this was after it was decided in March of 1939 that Australia would build Beauforts.
Worries about the supply of Taurus engines to Australia cropped up even before the fall of France and the British stopping the "export" of war materials (read engines to Australia)
"In early 1941, L4448 was converted as a trials aircraft and the combination was considered a success.[23][N 6] The first Australian-assembled Beaufort A9-1 flew on 5 May 1941 with the first Australian-built aircraft A9-7 coming off the production line in August. "
It all took time. See Beaufort
for more details on Australian production including the fact that over 600 firms were involved in making parts for the Beaufort.
Schemes for early production of any aircraft the Australians were not making historically (and especially engines) have to take into account the AUstralians were starting pretty much from scratch. The more complicated or diverse our armchair revisions are the more likely delays would have been.
- Thread starter
- #23
Kevin J
Banned
The Kestrel on which the Master was based first flew in 1937, so my idea is marginally plausible. Since the M20 had a power egg Merlin then no doubt it could be swapped out for a power egg Hercules. Alternately, the Aussies could hedge their bets by taking a building a plane and engine that actually worked with a supplier that wasn't going to discontinue supplies in the event of war, the Americans. Hindsight tells me that they were right.
And assigned quotas from those who made the decisions.
Shortround6
Major General
I believe you left out a word or letter/number ( I do it myself often enough)
Sentence should read "The M. 9 Kestrel on which the Master was based first flew in 1937, so my idea is marginally plausible"
mostly so we don't confuse the plane with the Kestrel engine.
This is only plausible if you assume that the Australians will buy the licence for a plane the RAF is NOT buying (at least until 1939) and ignore the fact that it might not have been quite right?
"The Master I had some noticeable differences from the Kestrel, such as in the shape of the rear fuselage and fin, the rudder and elevator balancing, the cockpit glazing, and the relocation of the radiator from nose to belly, but was otherwise very similar."
The Master MK first flew in March of 1939. same month they decide to build Beauforts in Australia.
Then you have the whole of what do you power them with, The British powered the bulk of their Master MK 1s with Kestrel engines taking out of storage, perhaps never used but not current production engines. The Merlin XX that powers the Miles M 20 doesn't show up as a production engine until the summer/fall of 1940 as a production engine.
The last thing that Australia needs to do is get involved with trying to make Hercules engines. Aside from the whole sleeve valve thing the Hercules needed very good ball or roller bearings. The majority of the main bearings were imported from Sweden via blockade runners. Both AIrcraft and modified MTBs.
This is unknown in in 1939/40 (or not acknowledged) but trying to set up manufacture of an engine that requires the amount of precision in manufacturer that the Hercules did might be biting off more than they can chew.
Please note that the NA-16 that the Wirraway was based on first flew on April 1st 1935 so the Australians had a pretty good idea what they were getting in 1937. North American having built a number of variants by that time.
- Thread starter
- #26
Kevin J
Banned
I've come across people like you before. They were usually in Quality Control or Validation. Listen, if you can dream it, you can do it, so obviously my ideas are workable.
- Thread starter
- #28
Kevin J
Banned
Why don't we just stick a Merlin in the Miles Kestrel,add 8 guns, and hey presto, we have a fast wooden fighter before WW2 even begins. We'll leave the back seat in a la Yak-7 so that if one of the pilot's mates gets shot down, he can swoop down, rescue him and take off. Alternately, he can take his girlfriend for joy rides.
- Thread starter
- #29
Kevin J
Banned
What do you think the guys on our air sea rescue launches used to do at weekends? Why take their girlfriends out for a spin, get outside the 3 mile limit, open the drinks cabinet and have a party. I should know, my Dad was one of them.
I work in QA, Sales, and Production. Constraints are real. (I do production planning and scheduling as well.)I've come across people like you before. They were usually in Quality Control or Validation. Listen, if you can dream it, you can do it, so obviously my ideas are workable.
Look at the CA-15, conceived mid-war ('43) when all the "pipelines" were flowing, and they still couldn't get a war-time aircraft flying in two years in an environment that was far more resource rich than anytime between 1941-'43.
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- Thread starter
- #31
Kevin J
Banned
It flew in March 42, entered service December 1942 IIRC. I was in IT development for 30 years, QA and Validation were a pain in the butt. The customer wanted a system to steal a lead on their competitors, they weren't too fussed about glitches. You got the system out and tarted it up for QA later for general release, otherwise you lost your market share. I'm talking mid seventies to mid nineties, don't know about later as I went contract, and again the customers just wanted solutions asap, not endless meetings and testing.
My bad. It was the CA-15. I have corrected the comment. I can't speak to your IT experience. Mine was aviation from 1972 until 2018. Slightly different operating and regulatory environment with the same "get it to the customer" mentality.
wingnuts
Airman 1st Class
CAC did manufacture the Mustang but the war was over by then, besides manufacturing the Wirraway and Boomerang they were servicing and repairing many other allied aircraft. GAF next door was also busy building Beauforts and Beaufighters plus repairing and servicing allied aircraft.
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Did the RAAF know about the Vampire and Meteor by say, mid-1943? It seems almost a certain bet that they would have been planning for jet production by 1946/47. If you're gonna tool up, and you have the Mustang in work along with the CA-15 as a back-up, why not go for the gusto!
wingnuts
Airman 1st Class
CAC did have their own jet designs (CA-23) but not until after the war was over, they did eventually build the CAC Sabre, a modified version of the Sabre. They were kept busy during the war and after. I worked there as an inspector from 1981 through takeovers by HdeH (Dirty Harry's) and Tenix until 2016.
Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation - Wikipedia
CAC CA-23 - Wikipedia
CAC Sabre - Wikipedia
Attachments
I do know the the Vampire was built. But, I'm too lazy to look it up. I'd bet the end of the war was a loss of impetus, so, I'd guess 1948 or so. I'd imagine Korea was the impetus to get the Sabre up and running.
wingnuts
Airman 1st Class
Yes, the Vampire was built by Hawker de Havilland at Bankstown in Sydney, the engines were built by CAC in Melbourne, one at least is still flying at Temora in Queensland.
Couldn't the US be asked to help set up production, the jigs and engines to help facilitate production?
I also understand one reason for using R-1830s instead of the Taurus was the specialised maintenance required of sleeve valve engines. Of course later on we used Hercules-equipped Beaufighters, but that was after a lot more experience had been gained.
