Aviation myths that will not die

[swampyankee]

If Braveheart took more liberties than the "The Midnight Ride of Paul Revere." that means that some of the main characters names aren't even right let alone battles, locations or any actions.

For our non-American members Paul Revere never made it to either Lexington or Concord. He was stopped at a British roadblock which his two co-riders broke through (one of which joined the ride on the spur of the moment coming back from his girlfriend's house) and after being detained for a number of hours, was allowed to walk back to Boston in his riding boots while his horse "joined" the British Army. Hardly the stuff of legend.

I suspect that Revere got more press because he had been a well-known, almost celebrity, silversmith before the war. "Revere Ware" wasn't ripping off his name; it was a descendant of his business, by some circuitous and tortuous corporate route.

 

[Kai Stemm]

Not aviation...
All naval sailors want to be marines...

 

[GrauGeist]

Not aviation...
All naval sailors want to be marines...

what is a "naval sailor"?

 

[Elmas]

Remember the movie "Airplane?"

I hooted when they showed a Boeing 707 jet airliner, but they played audio sounds consistent with a propeller aircraft. I thought that was a good joke.

It's like being an off-road motorcycle rider and seeing these old movies where they dub in the sound of a 2-stroke engine when they show a 4-stroke bike or vice versa. I always thought that was stupid ... or intentionally funny, I was never sure which. So, I chose to be entertained and laughed at it.

Hey Elmas,

What if you wanted to make the tank movie, but the only tansk you could get were the second one?

Would you choose to no make the movie or take poetic license and do it anyway?

No difficulty to build an excellent replica of the M-14 Italian tank.
Just take a Fiat "500" (old model, of course), put on the roof an empty can of sardines upside down, a peashooter in front and you'have something very similar....

 

[Kai Stemm]

what is a "naval sailor"?

lol I didn't notice I must've hit the auto type on my iPad I mean a sailor

 

[Shortround6]

Once again, timing (and training) play a big part in reputation.
The M 13/40 was a pretty good tank in the summer of 1940. With poorly trained crews and no radios it was employed poorly. By early 1942 it was totally obsolete like many 1940 tanks like American M2 light (thinner armor than M3) German MK III with 30mm armor (or less) and 37mm gun. Russian T-26.

 

[Elmas]

"Ed è con questo lamierino che volevi vincere la guerra? Firmato: Cusumano Francesco fu salvatore, Bersagliere"
(And it is with this tin can that you wanted to win the war? Signed: Cusumano Francesco fu Salvatore, Bersagliere. "

So it an italian Bersagliere wrote at El Alamein under the belly of a destroyed M-14...

Not only M-14 were obsolete and poor equipped (no radio..) but also were badly outnumbered....

"Carri armati nemici fatta irruzione a sud di Ariete con ciò Ariete accerchiata. Trovasi circa 5 km nord-est Bir el-Abd. Carri Ariete combattono."

("Enemy tanks raided south of Ariete and with this Ariete is encircled. It is about 5 km north-east of Bir El-Abd. Ariete tanks are fighting."
Last radio transmission from "Divisione Ariete", El Alamein, 4th november 1942, about 15.30.)

 

[Elmas]

Anybody have a comment or want to suggest another movie with good aerial sequences?

P.S.: Apologies if this flick has been covered. If so, I missed it.

View: https://youtu.be/R0d12MbOLqY



View: https://youtu.be/ItT_-W7HxB4

"Hey! You're scaring my chickens!!" a farmer screams at him..

When A.M.I. "Frecce tricolori" were flying G.91s....
The complete movie it is impossible to find today.

 

[Shortround6]

Again, timing and perspective is everything. The US Army ordered 1000 of these in Aug 1940 when the M13/40 was entering service.

Within weeks they realized the mistake and cut production to 100 while designing the M3 and M4 tanks using the same engine transmission and suspension. Had British and American tankers been using these in 1942 in North Africa Cusumano Francesco fu Salvatore's words could well have been written by an allied soldier.
The Italians couldn't translate new ideas into production in a timely manner.

 

[parsifal]

Ariete was not poorly trained. it was well trained in fact, and during the crusader battles was a stand out formation. just ask the New Zealanders. In many ways this formation was a stand out, with a fighting reputation that rivalled 21 Pz XX.

The other armoured div in the desert was generally not actively deployed until 1942. It tended to be used as a replacement source to keep Ariete up to strength. Centauro was the third Italian armoured formation and was not deployed until Tunisia.

Italian armour was typical of most of the early armoured formations. Insufficient organic infantry, artillery component too light, armoured component top heavy. There was nothing particularly wrong with the design for its time with the allies happy to use captured examples and afaik no obvious shortcomings except reliability.

 

[GregP]

Hey Elmas!

Those are great clips from movies I didn't even know about. In the first one, I bet there would be a big crash if one of the lead planes had an engine problem on the takeoff roll! Cool routines!

 

[Elmas]

Hey Elmas!

Those are great clips from movies I didn't even know about. In the first one, I bet there would be a big crash if one of the lead planes had an engine problem on the takeoff roll! Cool routines!

Hi Greg

A movie about the "Frecce Tricolori", A.M.I. Italian Aerobatic Team. It was filmed in 1971, when the "Pattuglia acrobatica nazionale – 313 Gruppo Addestramento acrobatico"" was mounted on Fiat G-91. Unfortunately there isn't the complete film but probably you've seen that that it has been cut in eleven episodes. Funny the rivality between the "Frecce Tricolori" and "Red arrows", with the two Commanders pulling each other's leg…

 

[GregP]

Most of the jet teams know each other and admire the others, whether they ever admit it or not ... that assumes a good performance at the show, of course. If not, most people understand ONE mistake or even two. A sloppy performance means loss of respect from other team, I'd imagine. Not for the country, but for the current team and leader. All assumptions.

I competed in motorcycle observed trials for some 20 years and achieved a sate championship five times ... in my class. If I saw a good rider have bad day, I didn't lose any respect because I had bad days, too. If I saw it several times in succession, I assumed he had lost the time to practice much. If I saw it over, say, four-five trials, I assumed he had "lost the edge" and didn't keep up with current obstacle requirements. That happened when the bikes took a jump in technology. The first was the monoshock, that was looked as as a kind of "cheat" at first, but rapidly became the standard. After 2 - 3 years, if you were't riding a monoshock, you simply weren't competitive anymore.

It may not be the same in aircraft since a Folland Gnat, even today, can look VERY good in aerobatic routines if he doesn't lose track of his fuel state. The Canadian Snowbirds always put on a good show and they are flying very old airplanes.

But their show isn't in the same league as a show with, say, Sukhoi Su-37s in a show designed to showcase the performance of the Su-37. The Snowbirds are just as, or maybe more PRECISE, but don't have the capability of a Pugacev Cobra, for instance, in the their CT-114 Tutors and can't go vertical forever out of sight. They fly a great routine, but have much less than a 1 : 1 thrust-to-weight ratio. Still, precision is admired by all. The Snowbirds are very entertaining to watch live, and perform a great show.

Most people who know jet teams have always enjoyed the Frecce Tricolori team, and I love the AerMacchi 339s. The team members have a tradition of staying with the team, unlike the U.S. team that rotates assignments on a regular basis. When you REALLY get to know your teammates, you fly a very precise show, and the Frecce Tricolori definitely HAVE that reputation worldwide. Perhaps not the highest-performing airframes in the business, but VERY precise. It makes for a wonderful display.

I look forward to searching for more Italian aerobatic films after seeing your post.

 

[yulzari]

[/QUOTE]Once again, timing (and training) play a big part in reputation.
The M 13/40 was a pretty good tank in the summer of 1940. With poorly trained crews and no radios it was employed poorly. By early 1942 it was totally obsolete like many 1940 tanks.[/QUOTE]

It was still being used by the Egyptian Army in 1948. But then so was the M22.

 

[swampyankee]

There are so many WW2 myths that won't die....
that Italian soldiers, sailors, and airmen were incompetent cowards, that the French just curled up in little fetal balls when the Germans showed up, and that Polish Lancers charged German tanks with spears, .....

Myths become such because they strike some deep cultural chords, which is why they're so hard to get rid of.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

I think the 400 mph top speed came from the calculated times during the legs on Kelsey's cross country flight.

According to Bodie "He climbed to 16,000 feet and then drifted up to 21,000 feet to pick up a cooperative tail wind. The recorded ground speed from Enid Oklahoma to St Louis Missouri was in excess of 400 mph, even with the engines throttled back to deliver 755 hp each." Obviously its not doing 400 mph at those hp ratings without assistance
Supposedly it reached 420 mph flying from Wright to Pittsburgh, but the entire trip was poorly documented with various discrepancies in data and no accounting for wind. In view of the fact that the following models didn't reach 400 mph until the P-38G it is doubtful that the XP-38 was a true 400 mph fighter. That being said it was probably the fastest fighter in the world at that time, however it took over three years to actually enter service. The first 400 mph allied fighter to actually see combat was the Spitfire Mk IX.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

According to Bodie "He climbed to 16,000 feet and then drifted up to 21,000 feet to pick up a cooperative tail wind. The recorded ground speed from Enid Oklahoma to St Louis Missouri was in excess of 400 mph, even with the engines throttled back to deliver 755 hp each." Obviously its not doing 400 mph at those hp ratings without assistance
Supposedly it reached 420 mph flying from Wright to Pittsburgh, but the entire trip was poorly documented with various discrepancies in data and no accounting for wind. In view of the fact that the following models didn't reach 400 mph until the P-38G it is doubtful that the XP-38 was a true 400 mph fighter. That being said it was probably the fastest fighter in the world at that time, however it took over three years to actually enter service. The first 400 mph allied fighter to actually see combat was the Spitfire Mk IX.

Although you state accurate facts, the FACT that he did maintain a ground speed of 400 mph at one point or another was enough to satisfy the semantics of the XP-38 cross country recorded speed, bragging rights as well as the leadership within the USAAC. BTW the heavier YP-38 did achieve 390 mph on a test flight February 12, 1941

 

[Reluctant Poster]

The tank engines were purpose built. Many people claim they used old aircraft engine blocks at times. This may or may not be a myth, Removing the supercharger and aircraft reduction gear is not as easy at sounds. The back of the prop reduction gear case was cast in one piece with the crankcase. The rear end of the engine may have had significant changes between the supercharger drive/and accessories and the tank accessory drive parts. Internal parts are much more interchangeable.

According to the book "The Rolls Royce Meteor" early Meteors used standard Merlin blocks with the reduction gear machined away (there is a picture on page 34). As much as possible was sourced from existing stock i.e. parts that were obsoleted by the latest mods, parts that were considered not in spec for an aero engine and parts salvaged from the repair programs.
"Because Rolls Royce had at all times to give the Air Ministry first priority in engine production, there was never a question of of it producing new Meteors from scratch. As far as possible all parts, excepting the 15% unique to the Meteor, would have to be provide from existing stocks of one kind or another."
"Many Merlin engines were withdrawn from service due to obsolescence, serious damage etc. These too were included to provide a source for major components,such as crankcase and cylinder blocks. Later the crankcase was produced from a special casting, thus deleting a considerable amount of machining."
" A typical example of salvage was a batch of 600 crankshafts from Glasgow with hairline cracks, which couldn't be used for highly boosted 1200 bhp aero-engines, but were acceptable for the less demanding 600 bhp Meteor. (Prior to release, five examples were run for a total of 740 hours without any deterioration in their integrity)
Interestingly the tank engine ran in the opposite direction to the aero-engine in order to match the existing transmission.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

I believe the P-40F/L had a Merlin 28, not an XX.

It is still a 20-series with a 2-speed supercharger, so the "XX" isn't really that far off the mark.

Just as a point of interest, the Merlin we will install in our Hispano Ha.1112 is a Merlin 228 (Merlin 28 built by Packard). Definitely a signle stage and I'm not familiar with the gear shift, so I don't know where it changes speeds, but I will after Saturday. I'm sure Steve Hinton knows.

I believe you mean the Merlin 224 which was the Packard equivalent of the Merlin 24. The Merlin 28 was the Packard version of the Merlin XX except for the introduction of the 2 piece block (Equivalent to the V-1650-1). The Merlin 38 was the Packard equivalent of the Merlin 22. Engine and aircraft mark numbers were assigned by the Air Ministry and there seems to be some randomness to them.

 

[Shortround6]

According to the book "The Rolls Royce Meteor" early Meteors used standard Merlin blocks with the reduction gear machined away (there is a picture on page 34). .......................................................
Interestingly the tank engine ran in the opposite direction to the aero-engine in order to match the existing transmission.

Thank you for the correction.