Aviation myths that will not die

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by fastmongrel, Nov 22, 2012.

  1. swampyankee

    swampyankee Active Member

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    I suspect that Revere got more press because he had been a well-known, almost celebrity, silversmith before the war. "Revere Ware" wasn't ripping off his name; it was a descendant of his business, by some circuitous and tortuous corporate route.
     
  2. Kai Stemm

    Kai Stemm Active Member

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    Not aviation...
    All naval sailors want to be marines...
     
  3. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

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    what is a "naval sailor"?
     
  4. Elmas

    Elmas Active Member

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    No difficulty to build an excellent replica of the M-14 Italian tank.
    Just take a Fiat "500" (old model, of course), put on the roof an empty can of sardines upside down, a peashooter in front and you'have something very similar....
     
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  5. Kai Stemm

    Kai Stemm Active Member

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    lol I didn't notice I must've hit the auto type on my iPad I mean a sailor
     
  6. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    Once again, timing (and training) play a big part in reputation.
    The M 13/40 was a pretty good tank in the summer of 1940. With poorly trained crews and no radios it was employed poorly. By early 1942 it was totally obsolete like many 1940 tanks like American M2 light (thinner armor than M3) German MK III with 30mm armor (or less) and 37mm gun. Russian T-26.
     
  7. Elmas

    Elmas Active Member

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    "Ed è con questo lamierino che volevi vincere la guerra? Firmato: Cusumano Francesco fu salvatore, Bersagliere"
    (And it is with this tin can that you wanted to win the war? Signed: Cusumano Francesco fu Salvatore, Bersagliere. "

    So it an italian Bersagliere wrote at El Alamein under the belly of a destroyed M-14...

    Not only M-14 were obsolete and poor equipped (no radio..) but also were badly outnumbered....

    "Carri armati nemici fatta irruzione a sud di Ariete con ciò Ariete accerchiata. Trovasi circa 5 km nord-est Bir el-Abd. Carri Ariete combattono."

    ("Enemy tanks raided south of Ariete and with this Ariete is encircled. It is about 5 km north-east of Bir El-Abd. Ariete tanks are fighting."
    Last radio transmission from “Divisione Ariete”, El Alamein, 4th november 1942, about 15.30.)

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Elmas

    Elmas Active Member

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    #548 Elmas, Jan 12, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017

    View: https://youtu.be/R0d12MbOLqY



    View: https://youtu.be/ItT_-W7HxB4

    "Hey! You're scaring my chickens!!" a farmer screams at him..

    When A.M.I. "Frecce tricolori" were flying G.91s....
    The complete movie it is impossible to find today.
     
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  9. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    Again, timing and perspective is everything. The US Army ordered 1000 of these in Aug 1940 when the M13/40 was entering service.
    [​IMG]
    Within weeks they realized the mistake and cut production to 100 while designing the M3 and M4 tanks using the same engine transmission and suspension. Had British and American tankers been using these in 1942 in North Africa Cusumano Francesco fu Salvatore's words could well have been written by an allied soldier.
    The Italians couldn't translate new ideas into production in a timely manner.
     
  10. parsifal

    parsifal Well-Known Member

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    Ariete was not poorly trained. it was well trained in fact, and during the crusader battles was a stand out formation. just ask the New Zealanders. In many ways this formation was a stand out, with a fighting reputation that rivalled 21 Pz XX.

    The other armoured div in the desert was generally not actively deployed until 1942. It tended to be used as a replacement source to keep Ariete up to strength. Centauro was the third Italian armoured formation and was not deployed until Tunisia.

    Italian armour was typical of most of the early armoured formations. Insufficient organic infantry, artillery component too light, armoured component top heavy. There was nothing particularly wrong with the design for its time with the allies happy to use captured examples and afaik no obvious shortcomings except reliability.
     
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  11. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    Hey Elmas!

    Those are great clips from movies I didn't even know about. In the first one, I bet there would be a big crash if one of the lead planes had an engine problem on the takeoff roll! Cool routines!
     
  12. Elmas

    Elmas Active Member

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    Hi Greg

    A movie about the “Frecce Tricolori”, A.M.I. Italian Aerobatic Team. It was filmed in 1971, when the “Pattuglia acrobatica nazionale – 313 Gruppo Addestramento acrobatico”” was mounted on Fiat G-91. Unfortunately there isn’t the complete film but probably you’ve seen that that it has been cut in eleven episodes. Funny the rivality between the “Frecce Tricolori” and “Red arrows”, with the two Commanders pulling each other’s leg…
     
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  13. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    Most of the jet teams know each other and admire the others, whether they ever admit it or not ... that assumes a good performance at the show, of course. If not, most people understand ONE mistake or even two. A sloppy performance means loss of respect from other team, I'd imagine. Not for the country, but for the current team and leader. All assumptions.

    I competed in motorcycle observed trials for some 20 years and achieved a sate championship five times ... in my class. If I saw a good rider have bad day, I didn't lose any respect because I had bad days, too. If I saw it several times in succession, I assumed he had lost the time to practice much. If I saw it over, say, four-five trials, I assumed he had "lost the edge" and didn't keep up with current obstacle requirements. That happened when the bikes took a jump in technology. The first was the monoshock, that was looked as as a kind of "cheat" at first, but rapidly became the standard. After 2 - 3 years, if you were't riding a monoshock, you simply weren't competitive anymore.

    It may not be the same in aircraft since a Folland Gnat, even today, can look VERY good in aerobatic routines if he doesn't lose track of his fuel state. The Canadian Snowbirds always put on a good show and they are flying very old airplanes.

    But their show isn't in the same league as a show with, say, Sukhoi Su-37s in a show designed to showcase the performance of the Su-37. The Snowbirds are just as, or maybe more PRECISE, but don't have the capability of a Pugacev Cobra, for instance, in the their CT-114 Tutors and can't go vertical forever out of sight. They fly a great routine, but have much less than a 1 : 1 thrust-to-weight ratio. Still, precision is admired by all. The Snowbirds are very entertaining to watch live, and perform a great show.

    Most people who know jet teams have always enjoyed the Frecce Tricolori team, and I love the AerMacchi 339s. The team members have a tradition of staying with the team, unlike the U.S. team that rotates assignments on a regular basis. When you REALLY get to know your teammates, you fly a very precise show, and the Frecce Tricolori definitely HAVE that reputation worldwide. Perhaps not the highest-performing airframes in the business, but VERY precise. It makes for a wonderful display.

    I look forward to searching for more Italian aerobatic films after seeing your post.
     
  14. yulzari

    yulzari Active Member

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    [/QUOTE]Once again, timing (and training) play a big part in reputation.
    The M 13/40 was a pretty good tank in the summer of 1940. With poorly trained crews and no radios it was employed poorly. By early 1942 it was totally obsolete like many 1940 tanks.[/QUOTE]

    It was still being used by the Egyptian Army in 1948. But then so was the M22.
     
  15. swampyankee

    swampyankee Active Member

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    There are so many WW2 myths that won't die....
    that Italian soldiers, sailors, and airmen were incompetent cowards, that the French just curled up in little fetal balls when the Germans showed up, and that Polish Lancers charged German tanks with spears, .....

    Myths become such because they strike some deep cultural chords, which is why they're so hard to get rid of.
     
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