B-17 landing

[FLYBOYJ]

I'm going to throw a few things out there on all this....

First off I am not multi-engine tail wheel rated or rated to fly an aircraft with a gross weight over 12,000 pounds, but as a maintainer I have worked on a host of GA aircraft as well as large commercial aircraft (727s, DC-9 and even a DC-3) and I could tell you that I didn't like what I seen in either clip. By the admittance of Jim H, the B-17's tail is it's "achilles heel." With that, if I was an operator I would make damn sure I wasn't doing anything to remotely put any undue stress on that area, even if, according to Jim, keeping that tail up was SOP. To the pilot it might be totally "OK" but you try telling that to the maintainer who has to repair the aircraft when they find damage in the tail area during the next inspection, and I'm sure many of the maintainers working on that aircraft are volunteers.

Now taking this a step further - another clip emerges of the same aircraft being bounced pretty hard during a landing. To me it looks like the pilot flaired way too high. Is it the same crew?!?!?!?

I see a trend and it disturbs me.

It's bad enough to see a great and rare bird operated in this manner but what bothers me more is that if there is a mishap as a result of continued operation as we seen, it always puts the whole warbird community in an unfavorable spotlight.

BTW - I'm involved in the warbird community, mainly around L-29s and 39s. If I seen operators continue to do things like what was shown on those clips, I'd be making phone calls. One bad accident will hurt all of us and it will be really frustrating if the accident was avoidable.

As the spring and summer months are around the corner and the air show circuit is starting, I hope I don't see this aircraft on a CNN breaking news story...

My 2 cents - stay away from the stock market...

 

[lesofprimus]

Ive seen many -17s land at airshows, displays, archived footage and once when I took a ride in one...

I have never seen one land with its tailwheel that high for that long, ever.... SOP my ass... Pilot hotdogging for the crowd...

Bullsh!t move with a priceless part of our history...

 

[ToughOmbre]

Have seen many B-17 landings over the years as well. Just last year at the MAAM WW II Weekend the B-17 "Yankee Lady" must have had 7 or 8 takeoffs and landings.

Not once did the pilot pull a tail high stunt like that.

That pilot was/is a jackass!

TO

 

[backtothewind]

Yes same aircraft and same venue, Duxford I think.

Did look a strange landing, "showboating" I don't think so, he was well down the flight line.

So much experience on both sides of the argument .............. where did that come from ............ just a post by Sunny on a B17 coming in and rolling to a stop.

Some guys want to sit back a little and take a sip, seems like the Eagle might take off again with all that angst.

So much venom.

Take a look at the windsock on take off and look at it on the landing, it might have swung and is blowing up it's arse

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Yes same aircraft and same venue, Duxford I think.

Did look a strange landing, "showboating" I don't think so, he was well down the flight line.

So much experience on both sides of the argument .............. where did that come from ............ just a post by Sunny on a B17 coming in and rolling to a stop.

Some guys want to sit back a little and take a sip, seems like the Eagle might take off again with all that angst.

So much venom.

Take a look at the windsock on take off and look at it on the landing, it might have swung and is blowing up it's arse

Yes there is a lot of experience on this forum and all those with experience on this subject matter are more than welcomed to comment providing they could back up their expertise...

As far as "the eagle." He'll take care of those who he feels are being @sses on this forum and as a fellow moderator, I back him up 100%.

In the first clip at the 45/ 46 second mark is when the aircraft lands and you could see the windsock in the background blowing at about 5 knots right down the runway. IMO there is no reason why he should of kept that tail up that high and that far down the runway for as long ha he did - look at the way it hits the ground when he finally let's it down - Like putting a knife in "achilles heel."

In the second clip there is nothing showing to indicate a wind shift, wind shear or any other condition that should of caused that situation and it would take a hell of a change in the wind to contribute to something like that and it would of also been heard over the clip sound (wind blowing). In the 8 second mark of the second clip you could see the landing gear hit and compress, later on the pilot brings the plane down hard in a 3 point and you could see the tail take a nice "shot." So much for that "achilles heel."

Bottom line, whoever was flying that aircraft flared it too high, was coming in too fast and did not have the yoke far enough back - "a slight rise on the threshold" as the submitter of the video stated in the title isn't going to launch a landing B-17 100' or more back into the air, and even if it hit a "slight rise on the threshold" the pilot should of been well aware of it prior to landing, especially if flying a rare aircraft.

Sorry but after seeing the first clip and then having another clip show up seeing that aircraft being bounced 100 feet in the air upon a normal landing, there seems to be some fundamental problems with the operation of that aircraft. Sorry Wind, but I've been in this business 31 years and I know when I see and accident waiting to happen. If anything maybe someone who operates, maintains or owns that aircraft might want to consider what some this forum's "observers" feel about it's operation - in the end it might save the aircraft as well as a few lives.

UPDATE
I showed both clips to a few of the folks where I work at - some of them have several THOUSAND hours in tail draggers and at least one has a large multi engine tailwheel type rating for a DC-3. All of them agreed that in the first clip the pilot purposely kept the tail of the aircraft up way too long. In the second clip - well one guy put it like this "if its the same guy flying, he should be shot."

 

[ccheese]

Have seen many B-17 landings over the years as well. Just last year at the MAAM WW II Weekend the B-17 "Yankee Lady" must have had 7 or 8 takeoffs and landings.

Not once did the pilot pull a tail high stunt like that.

That pilot was/is a jackass!

TO

I was there, along with TO njaco, and Yankee Lady never once made
an abnormal landing. I agree... the pilot was "flat-hatting".... a Navy
term for hot-dogging...

Charles

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Some guys want to sit back a little and take a sip, seems like the Eagle might take off again with all that angst.

So much venom.

Angst? Venom?

I don't think so. I just don't like people who act like assholes...

Is that a problem?

 

[Messy1]

Fine by me! That's what makes this forum enjoyable! Trouble makers are quickly shown the door proverbial door!

 

[backtothewind]

Adler

I assume the ?? after the words reflects a puzzlement on your part

Angst .............. It is used in English to describe an intense feeling of strife.

Venom ............. something resembling or suggesting poison in its effect; spite; malice.

This is a forum ................... that's all, opinions are allowed. Sometimes people may say or state something questionable. Constructive comments are always welcome, but to dive in in suck a bombastic fashion is just a little over the top.

Recognising an 4sshole is certainly an art.

I'm new here and don't recognise any hierarchy in those that post, but clearly Eagle you have spent a lot of time on here, and as someone with a senior status I presume, I would have expected a more tolerant and civil attitude, than simply flaming a guy who's opinion you disagree with.

Sunny once again thanks for an interesting post, the video shows a cross wind at take off and on the landing at 00.47 sec it looks to me to shift direction downwind quite a bit. Not trying to make excuses, but possibly looking for reasons. As for the second clip, Duxford has a notorious hump which it appears the pilot caught on the way, still managed to put the plane down gently in the end.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Adler

I assume the ?? after the words reflects a puzzlement on your part

Angst .............. It is used in English to describe an intense feeling of strife.

Venom ............. something resembling or suggesting poison in its effect; spite; malice.

Yes I know, English is my first language thank you.

I happen to be an American...

This is a forum ................... that's all, opinions are allowed. Sometimes people may say or state something questionable. Constructive comments are always welcome,

Making a questionable statement does not mean one has to act like an *******.

but to dive in in suck a bombastic fashion is just a little over the top.

If it is not your style, you may form a new forum someplace else and run it as you please.

We have many members of this forum and we all come from different walks of life. We have experience in the aviation world ranging from novice to high experience. We bring different opinions to the table. We all get along as well, because we do not talk down to each other or act as ******* to each other. To come into a forum and tell people that they are armchair pilots who have no clue what they are talking about that, that is what set me off, that is why I called him an *******.

Those that do act so, are treated in kind and usually do not last long.

Recognising an 4sshole is certainly an art.

Why thank you...

I'm new here and don't recognise any hierarchy in those that post, but clearly Eagle you have spent a lot of time on here, and as someone with a senior status I presume, I would have expected a more tolerant and civil attitude, than simply flaming a guy who's opinion you disagree with.

1. I did not agree or disagree with his post. I merely stated he does not have to come in here and be an ******* to other members of this forum.

2. Please read what I wrote above about starting a new forum and you can run it as you please.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

the video shows a cross wind at take off and on the landing at 00.47 sec it looks to me to shift direction downwind quite a bit. Not trying to make excuses, but possibly looking for reasons. As for the second clip, Duxford has a notorious hump which it appears the pilot caught on the way, still managed to put the plane down gently in the end.

A wind shift as seen on the clip (5 to 10 knots max) is not going to induce a "drop off" or wind shear on an aircraft that is probably landing with a gross weight of over 50,000 pounds. As far as the hump - if it is well known it should be so stated on the airport directory or a NOTAM should be issued for it and it should be avoided, especially when landing a B-17.

And in the end, that clip may look the plane was "gently" brought down - it wasn't, and I'll base that on my personal experience flying tail wheel aircraft, my spine hurts everytime I watch that clip. The first responder to all this stated that 3 pointers should be avoided, so there you go.

"Flared to high, landed too fast, didn't get the yoke far enough back." I give him credit for not inducing a second bouce or inducing PIO.

And I repeat - I hope I don't see that plane on a "CNN Breaking News Report."

 

[lesofprimus]

I assume the ?? after the words reflects a puzzlement on your part

Angst .............. It is used in English to describe an intense feeling of strife.

Venom ............. something resembling or suggesting poison in its effect; spite; malice.

And the next time u wanna flap ur mouth vagina off to a Senior Moderator in such a condensending way, I'll ban ur disrepectful ass......

Is THAT clear enough for u backofmyass???

 

[Colin1]

I assume the ?? after the words reflects a puzzlement on your part

Angst ... It is used in English to describe an intense feeling of strife.

Venom ... something resembling or suggesting poison in its effect; spite; malice.

This is a forum ... that's all, opinions are allowed. Sometimes people may say or state something questionable. Constructive comments are always welcome, but to dive in in such a bombastic fashion is just a little over the top.

Recognising an 4sshole is certainly an art.

I'm new here and don't recognise any hierarchy in those that post, but clearly Eagle you have spent a lot of time on here, and as someone with a senior status I presume, I would have expected a more tolerant and civil attitude, than simply flaming a guy who's opinion you disagree with

and how do you think posts like this help?

Providing a thesaurus service to a person for a pretty inaccurate description of him? You have your own measure of venom and you've blended it with the lowest form of wit - sarcasm.

From what I gather of the thread, it was jimH who was flattening opinion, 'I fly them, I know, so why don't you all just shut up' - opinions are allowed? Yes they are; sometimes people may say or state something questionable? Yes they do; jimH doesn't seem to have grasped that.

Bombastic? Well, like us, I think he just likes the forum the way it is thanks...

Sorry, but recognising an 4sshole doesn't make you one; Hitler was an 4sshole, does that make me one?

There isn't any hierarchy, you're right and there is a tolerant and civil attitude; where in 'tolerant and civil attitude' will I find calling people a 'bunch of armchair pilots' to be tolerant and civil? What was 'constructive' about the comment?

Not flamed over a difference of opinion, more a difference of attitude.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

and how do you think posts like this help?

Providing a thesaurus service to a person for a pretty inaccurate description of him? You have your own measure of venom and you've blended it with the lowest form of wit - sarcasm.

From what I gather of the thread, it was jimH who was flattening opinion, 'I fly them, I know, so why don't you all just shut up' - opinions are allowed? Yes they are; sometimes people may say or state something questionable? Yes they do; jimH doesn't seem to have grasped that.

Bombastic? Well, like us, I think he just likes the forum the way it is thanks...

Sorry, but recognising an 4sshole doesn't make you one; Hitler was an 4sshole, does that make me one?

There isn't any hierarchy, you're right and there is a tolerant and civil attitude; where in 'tolerant and civil attitude' will I find calling people a 'bunch of armchair pilots' to be tolerant and civil? What was 'constructive' about the comment?

Not flamed over a difference of opinion, more a difference of attitude.

Well said, thank you.

 

[backtothewind]

Woho if this was a fishing forum I reckon I just landed a full net.

Strange thing is I like this forum, the amount of knowledge and wisdom here is quite amazing why I should want to start my own I have no idea.

Thanks for recognising the sarcasm ............ it was intended.

By the way Colin "Sorry, but recognising an 4sshole doesn't make you one; Hitler was an 4sshole, does that make me one" .... your quote, certainly not mine.

Well thanks for all your comments, I understand where you guys are coming from, may not agree with the pros you use to express it, but that's with me.


LesofPrimus ...............Quote: "And the next time u wanna flap ur mouth vagina off to a Senior Moderator in such a condensending way, I'll ban ur disrepectful ass......

Is THAT clear enough for u backofmyass???"

Tasty ...... Uhmm....I think that proves my point about the the way some of you express yourselves especially to newcomers. You really should let yourself down like that.

FlyBoy thanks for the comments, in all this haranguing its good to read some clarity.

Oh and Les (guess that might be your name), if you want to ban me that's up to you, think it would just vindicate my previous statements.

 

[lesofprimus]

OK, Im banning ur ass....

 

[Messy1]

backtothewind
This really is a great group of guys. I have learned a TON on this forum, and visit it daily. In general, as long as members give respect, they will get respect. Weather you agree, JimH's comments were a little overboard for his first posts, and time on this forum, and long time members will not take flack from a newbi. Sometimes members will get into a disagreement, or feathers may get a little ruffled, but I never recall one time when the issue could not be worked out. Newbies will need to get there feet wet and earn some respect, before anyone will take guff, I still consider myself a newbie. This forum is full of very passionate people who believe in preserving past and present history. The moderators are a good group of guys, and do a excellent job of policing this site, and they do need to be strict as there are many different types, with varying views all across the spectrum, and fights do and will erupt at a moments notice. Stick around and you will come to appreciate those and other differences that make this site so much more enjoyable.

 

[Messy1]

Ok, nevermind.

 

[Matt308]

Man. All this over a good video. Now that is a shame.

 

[Messy1]

I agree Matt. I was just trying to diffuse the conversation a little. I guess if things could get this heated over a video, maybe it is for the best that they guy got banned before he was involved in a serious, heated discussion.