B-17 vs. He-177 vs. Lancaster

[kool kitty89]

On the Mosie's construction: It was not of typical wooden aircraft construction, DH had been working with wooden aircraft or some time and had developed specialized materials. They used birch plywood sanwiched over balsa. Additionally their construction methods required skilled labor for much of the construction with furnature companies contracted for many parts of the airframe. Significant changes to the manufacturing would be necessary to make it suitable for the large scale US pruduction methods.

Additionally (as mentioned by FLYBOYJ) the construction of the Mossie would have meant repairs and maintence would be more difficult. Service life would also likely be shorter, with aircraft becoming "war weary" more quickly than metal counterparts. Finally, tropical climates would not be very friendly to it, so the CBI and PTO would be problematic.

 

[Kurfürst]

AFAIK the Mossie's airframe life was indeed very short, ca 150 hours only, about 1/3 of that of all-metal single engined fighters.

 

[Waynos]

De Havilland had a problem will ALL of their wooden aircraft coming unglued. Bill Gunston writes very scathingly of it in his book 'Back to the Drawing Board' which includes this picture of a DH 91 'in difficulty'. This picture caused much embarrassment for De Havilland when it was sent to a newspaper by a local shopkeeper, but in the 1960's Hawker Siddeley cleared it for release again!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

We've discussed this several years ago....

When a mechanic repairs wood the environment has to be clean and sometimes temperature and humidity controlled, so you could see the problems an aircraft like the Mossie would have experienced in the long term. Additionally working with wood does require a special set of skills and many times repairs actually weaken the over-all structuer. Repairing aluminum structures is much easier IMO and because an aircraft is riveted together, large sections could be replaced without worrying about structutral compromise.

 

[airboiy]

the mossie was a good plane, but small. go to the Air force Museum to see one.

about the poll, i'd have to go with the lancaster cause of it's ruggedness in the face of danger. it was also very manuverable for a heavy bomber

 

[slaterat]

I voted for the lanc, it carried the biggest bomb load with great reliability, combined with adequate armour and defense for the role it was designed for, a heavy night bomber.


As a concept ,ie a heavily armed and unescorted day bomber, the B-17 was a failure. Its employment as an effective weapons system required a long range fighter escort component.

The Heinkel 177 was plagued by unreliable engines and never achieved its full potential due to developments in the war.

Slaterat

 

[P-Popsie]

On the Mosie's construction: Finally, tropical climates would not be very friendly to it, so the CBI and PTO would be problematic.

This is true as the reports coming from operational Mosquito squadrons in the Pacific List skin mould as one of the major reasons for unserviceability of their A/C. In europe however this A/C was a formidable opponent, but as you also mentioned it was suseptible to airframe stress.

A sad indication of this was when two Pilots rotating out from 617Sqdn Took one of the units Mosquitoes up for a "one last spin" this particular A/C had been part of the Famous Munich Raid and had probably been stressed beyond its limits by the requirements of that extremely dangerous Mission. During a turn the Mainspar on the DH 98 collapsed sending the A/C into the ground Killing both men whose names I unfortunately cannot remember at this time.

I have previously voted elswhere on the DH 98 being the best A/C of the War and if it was on the list here i would vote for it again.

This not being the case i feel its a no brainer Avro Lancaster again for versatility bomb capacity range and crew survivability. This should begin a few discussions, Cheers

 

[drgondog]

We've discussed this several years ago....

When a mechanic repairs wood the environment has to be clean and sometimes temperature and humidity controlled, so you could see the problems an aircraft like the Mossie would have experienced in the long term. Additionally working with wood does require a special set of skills and many times repairs actually weaken the over-all structuer. Repairing aluminum structures is much easier IMO and because an aircraft is riveted together, large sections could be replaced without worrying about structutral compromise.

Dead on. Before I got out of the Biz, we also had a similar conundrum regarding the 'new' composite' tailboom on the Hueys. A bitch to fix battle damage, whereas a 'c' ration can top can patch aluminum skin hole in an emergency.

 

[kool kitty89]

I know it's getting a bit off topic, but did the Vampire's partially wooden fuselage construction give any problems in service? (or limit airframe longevity)

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I know it's getting a bit off topic, but did the Vampire's partially wooden fuselage construction give any problems in service? (or limit airframe longevity)

I knew 2 people who operated them and they never had problems, but from what I remember a small portion of the nose was the only area made from wood along with the gun bay doors.

 

[Graeme]

I knew 2 people who operated them and they never had problems, but from what I remember a small portion of the nose was the only area made from wood along with the gun bay doors.

Australia is aboriginal for "Vampire on a pole". They're everywhere!

This one is close by and regularly maintained by RAAF apprentices. You know its time for more work when the nose paint peels exposing wood rot. Of course our harsh environment doesn't help...

 

[Timppa]

Additionally (as mentioned by FLYBOYJ) the construction of the Mossie would have meant repairs and maintence would be more difficult. Service life would also likely be shorter, with aircraft becoming "war weary" more quickly than metal counterparts. Finally, tropical climates would not be very friendly to it, so the CBI and PTO would be problematic.

This is actually worth a topic of its own.
Most of the Soviet fighters were all or partially wooden. LaGG-3/La-5/La-7 practically all wooden stuctures, Yaks had wooden wings and (later) wooden fuselage skins. Kept in front line conditions, which meant rain, mud, snow, ice. Late 109's had wooden tails.
Shores describes couple of incidents of structural failures of Mosquito, which caused temporary grounding in Burma. On the other hand, in one time two Mustangs were lost every week due to structural failure. Similar incidents with Spitfires, 109's etc.

I've never seen solid numbers of serviceability or failure rates of wooden planes compared to others.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

This is actually worth a topic of its own.
Most of the Soviet fighters were all or partially wooden. LaGG-3/La-5/La-7 practically all wooden stuctures, Yaks had wooden wings and (later) wooden fuselage skins. Kept in front line conditions, which meant rain, mud, snow, ice. Late 109's had wooden tails.
Shores describes couple of incidents of structural failures of Mosquito, which caused temporary grounding in Burma. On the other hand, in one time two Mustangs were lost every week due to structural failure. Similar incidents with Spitfires, 109's etc.

I've never seen solid numbers of serviceability or failure rates of wooden planes compared to others.

You'll probably never know to what extent Soviet wooden aircraft had structural failures but I would gamble it was a lot higher than experienced by the rest of the allies. I could tell you one thing however - wood will maintain as long as the temperature and humidity environment remains close to constant. I seen wood aircraft brought from a cool environment into a desert environment. Many of the wood components shrunk and dry rotted while sitting in a hangar!

 

[P-Popsie]

My father was on board the HMS Eagle Operating Sea Venoms off inchon do they have the same construction as the Vampires

 

[Waynos]

Yes they do

 

[Graeme]

That's the point I'm trying to make. With the benefit of hindsight, I believe it would have been better to produce larger amount of planes such as the Mosquito to fulfill the roll.

G'day Watanbe.

This is what De Havilland thought as well. They were working on a scaled-up version of the Mosquito, the DH-99, with high-altitude Sabre engines in early 1941. According to De Havilland two DH-99s could be built for the cost of one Short Stirling.

By their reckoning two DH-99s compared to a Stirling carried "more bombs to the target in less time, for less crew hours, for less journey hours and less engine hours, and with much higher performance and manoeuvrability, though without guns."



("Mosquito" Sharpe/Boyer 1971)

 

[kool kitty89]

Was't the designation DH.99 also applied to the initially (all metal) proposal version of the Vampire? (the designation seems to have been recycled a couple times, earlier DH.99 had been used for a twin engined light civil aircraft project)

 

[Watanbe]

G'day Watanbe.

This is what De Havilland thought as well. They were working on a scaled-up version of the Mosquito, the DH-99, with high-altitude Sabre engines in early 1941. According to De Havilland two DH-99s could be built for the cost of one Short Stirling.

By their reckoning two DH-99s compared to a Stirling carried "more bombs to the target in less time, for less crew hours, for less journey hours and less engine hours, and with much higher performance and manoeuvrability, though without guns."



("Mosquito" Sharpe/Boyer 1971)

Very interesting thanks!

 

[Waynos]

DH further developed the DH99 into the DH 101 to meet specification B.14/41 which broadly called for a bomber that could carry a 6,000lb load at 430 mph for 1,750 miles, it was not alone either for its chief rival to this spec was Sydney Camm's Hawker P.1005.

According to the history of these projects in my posession these two designs were abandones due to the low production rate and non availability of Napier Sabre engines. DH initially designed a slightly scaled down Griffon powered deriviative called the DH 102 but eventually further development of the Mosquito itself met most of the requirement.

 

[alejandro_]

I have attached some data on He-177 speed and climb, its a bit blurry but readable.