B-17 vs. He-177 vs. Lancaster

[davebender]

A good find as your data is for the mass production He-177A3 and He-177A5 models.

 

[vikingBerserker]

Very cool, where did you get that from?

 

[alejandro_]

National Archives at Kew. There are many documents with data on German aircraft.

 

[HealzDevo]

But the whole problem with the bomber aircraft was that it needed the teeth to go into enemy territory and come back alive. This was an ability that the B-17 had in spades. B-17s had the ability to dish up potential hurt on enemy fighters.

The Lancasters mainly became night-bombers because they didn't have the range and the ability to punch through into enemy territory in daylight hours. That is the mark of a good bomber especially now that radar means bombers can be picked up day or night...

The He-177 could really have given Germany an advantage in the Battle of Britain used wisely, escorted to take out the airfields and radar sites. Then the Germans would have had the run of the air if a large number of these were used in raids. The Allieds didn't really have that many really heavy bombers.

 

[Njaco]

The Allieds didn't really have that many really heavy bombers.

At what time?

and what is your definition of 'many'?

Even in 1943, the Allies were operating 400+ bombers during missions while the LW could only muster about 200 at best.

 

[Glider]

But the whole problem with the bomber aircraft was that it needed the teeth to go into enemy territory and come back alive. This was an ability that the B-17 had in spades. B-17s had the ability to dish up potential hurt on enemy fighters.

The B17 was tough no question but it still had to wait for escort before it became effective.

The Lancasters mainly became night-bombers because they didn't have the range and the ability to punch through into enemy territory in daylight hours. That is the mark of a good bomber especially now that radar means bombers can be picked up day or night...

The Lancaster had the range and as for daylight raids they were only really tried in numbers after control of the air had been won. How they would have performed with an escort earlier, we don't really know. There were some pretty good dayight raids but these could have been one off's.

The He-177 could really have given Germany an advantage in the Battle of Britain used wisely, escorted to take out the airfields and radar sites. Then the Germans would have had the run of the air if a large number of these were used in raids.

While this is true its a bit like saying the Japanese wouldn't have got very far if the US had B29's at the time of Pearl Harbour. BOB 1940, reliable He 177 at least 1943. Pearl Harbour Dec 1941 B29 1944.

The Allieds didn't really have that many really heavy bombers.

They had a heck of a lot more than any one else. A few thousand in operation depending on your timescale.

 

[Shortround6]

The He-177 could really have given Germany an advantage in the Battle of Britain used wisely, escorted to take out the airfields and radar sites. Then the Germans would have had the run of the air if a large number of these were used in raids. The Allieds didn't really have that many really heavy bombers.

With out a total time warp the He 177 would have simply provided the British with large, high value targets that the Germans could not afford to loose. If the Germans could have operated 1943 He 177s in 1940 you might have a point but a 1940 He 177, even assuming the engine fire thing was solved, would be using 1940 Luftwaffe guns for defense. No power turrets and either 7.9mm MG 15s or 20mm MG FF cannon with tiny drums (15-20 rounds?) in single hand held mounts.
Engines would be another problem. a 1940 He 177 production plane would probably have had 2200hp 606 engines. They would also have had a lower critical hight than the engines used in later He 177s. Think of joining two of the 601s used in either the 109E or the 110C, not the later 601 'N's or 'E' engines let alone the 605s. Cutting 800-1000hp from the He 177 is going to seriously affect the performance as is lowering the critical hight ( Full throttle hight) of the engines down to around 13,000ft. Granted the 1940 He 177 might be little lighter due to not carrying the defensive armament of a 1942-43 model but I think we can see that it is going to need a LOT of escorting to have a hope of succeeding in a mission over the British Isles.
What does it do for the Luftwaffe in 1940 that double the number of Do 215s or Me 110s fitted with bomb racks do not?

edit> as for "heavy bombers" in 1940. I think that is what Whitleys were? Granted they were called a medium but being able to carry 7000lbs for short distances and 4,000lbs for 1650 miles kind of puts them in a rather rare class in 1940 for a plane in squadron service.

 

[HealzDevo]

I am talking about in the Battle Of Britain. That is where I am saying that the Allied forces (Britain) at this stage had very few heavy bombers. I am saying that the He-177 could have been in service for BOB if it had been better thought out. I really do think it could have turned things used properly.

 

[drgondog]

I am talking about in the Battle Of Britain. That is where I am saying that the Allied forces (Britain) at this stage had very few heavy bombers. I am saying that the He-177 could have been in service for BOB if it had been better thought out. I really do think it could have turned things used properly.

Things could have been 'turned' had the LW persevered on attacks against the Radar sites and RAF early and often... having said that the purpose was to achieve air superiority over England to support an invasion, and its not clear how Hitler was going to invade.... God knows Crete didn't work out, or any other Island that I am aware of.

Even with relative air superiority over the Channel and England, attempting to transport troops from France to England remained a LARGE question of 'how'?

 

[Njaco]

God knows Crete didn't work out, or any other Island that I am aware of.

With the possible exception of Guernsey Island.

I am talking about in the Battle Of Britain.

ok, with the possible exception of the attacks on London and the ports, against what targets would you employ these He 177s? I don't think you would need such a large machine to attack radar sites and airfields. As Bill pointed out, the purpose was to achieve air superiority over England to support an invasion and the radar and airfields would be priority one. But you also have to hit the RIGHT airfileds. Too many times during the Battle, the LW concentrated on satelite or Coastal Command airfields which brought nil to the objective.

 

[buffnut453]

Things could have been 'turned' had the LW persevered on attacks against the Radar sites and RAF early and often... having said that the purpose was to achieve air superiority over England to support an invasion, and its not clear how Hitler was going to invade.... God knows Crete didn't work out, or any other Island that I am aware of.

Even with relative air superiority over the Channel and England, attempting to transport troops from France to England remained a LARGE question of 'how'?

Agreed. I suspect Hitler wasn't planning a full frontal assault. He wanted the UK to invite Germans across the Channel. One likely scenario would involve the destruction/neutralisation of Fighter Command over Southern England which would have put London on the receiving-end of an unopposed LW air offensive, resulting in the evacuation of Government and, potentially, an opportunity for peace negotiations. Despite all Churchill's rhetoric, things would have looked exceedingly bad if the British Empire proved itself incapable of defending its capital city. Following peace negotiations, there would have been the inevitable "election" resulting in a pro-German parliament which could have "invited" the Germans over to help mop up isolated bands of resistance.

 

[Gixxerman]

God knows Crete didn't work out

True but Crete was a near total disaster for the Germans because of Ultra (and according to something I read recently amongst the detritus of the defeated British forces, had they looked properly, the secret of Ultra was there to be seen, thankfully the Germans missed it, apparantly).

In the BoB Ultra had not really come of age and wouldn't, across the German forces, for at least another year....in fact Creet was probably the first major battle effected by it.