B-25 weapons thread
- Thread starter Micdrow
- Start date
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Greg Boeser
1st Sergeant
Did the Russians use the aircraft that were interned?
- Thread starter
- #403
From what I read the answer is yes, those that could be repaired that is. They were used to supplement the aircraft lost that flew to Russia for the lend lease program. Even after the war the Russians kept aircraft flying even though the lend lease agreement was to destroy them. Some where destroyed but not all. Some B-25's where still flying in the 1950's after the war.
Russian sources mention that "a few" B-25 from the CBI have been interned and used by the Soviets - no clue how many those were. I know for sure of one a/c: the Tokyo Raider piloted by Capt. Ed York, s/n 40-2242. This was the only "Mitchell" from the Doolittle Raid to land on Soviet soil.
The Soviets (Pacific Fleet Air Force) tested the a/c in the far east of the USSR. At the end the former raider was sent to a regiment near Moscow - information is from this Russian site:
B-25 Mitchell в СССР
после общего поста о поставках авиатехники в СССР, начнем подавать посты о каждом самолете по отдельности – Самые лучшие и интересные новости по теме: Военное авиатехника, войны, истории на развлекательном портале Fishki.net
One of the Mitchells came to the USSR in April 1942 in an unusual way. It was the plane of the same Captain York who had once welcomed Soviet pilots into his squadron. He took part in Doolittle's famous raid on Tokyo. 16 bombers launched from the deck of the aircraft carrier "Hornet" and on the birthday of the Japanese emperor bombed targets in Tokyo, Yokohama, Kobe and Nagoya. It was assumed that either the planes would land in China, or the crews would be parachuted into the area where American submarines were patrolling. Not everyone succeeded. York chose another option — he sat down near Vladivostok. The York B-25B (№ 40-2242) was non-standard — with truncated wings, an incomplete set of equipment, and no tail turret (replaced by a wooden model), but with an additional gas tank. The aircraft was studied by and flown by Pacific Air Force pilots. From Unashi, where he landed, he was driven to the Semenovka airfield, and then, but by order, to Moscow, to the 65th special-purpose air regiment.
I don't know what "trunkated wings"
could be, probably a wrong translation.Here 2 photos of the Raider at Unashi (a village near a Soviet military base AFAIK), USSR:
These are the only 2 photos I could find during the last 15 years of the a/c. Maybe more will "surface" one day?
Cheers!
- Thread starter
- #405
The following is quoted from the book Lend-Lease and Soviet Aviation in the Second World War by Vladimer Kotelnikov.
Quote: Among the aircraft in service in the Kurils, there were several which had been obtained via "unofficial" channels: they were interned in 1943-1945. The first 4 of them landed on Yelizovo airfield near Petropavlovsk, after the raid of the American aviation on Paramushir on 11 September 1943, all of them belonged to the USAAF 77th Squadron, Another bomber arrived a year later, on 17 September 1944, in total 12 B-25's landed on Kamchatka. The last of them a B-25J piloted by R. Wolbrink- was severely damaged by Japanese anti-aircraft fire and performed a belly landing on 10 June 1945. Several aircraft were successfully repaired and placed in service with the 128th Composite Air Division. End Quote.
That does not count the one above that Yves mentioned. I will have to look around but I thought I had one B-25 picture some where that had Soviet markings but that they left the nose art alone on the aircraft. Maybe I can get lucky and find it again.
Quote: Among the aircraft in service in the Kurils, there were several which had been obtained via "unofficial" channels: they were interned in 1943-1945. The first 4 of them landed on Yelizovo airfield near Petropavlovsk, after the raid of the American aviation on Paramushir on 11 September 1943, all of them belonged to the USAAF 77th Squadron, Another bomber arrived a year later, on 17 September 1944, in total 12 B-25's landed on Kamchatka. The last of them a B-25J piloted by R. Wolbrink- was severely damaged by Japanese anti-aircraft fire and performed a belly landing on 10 June 1945. Several aircraft were successfully repaired and placed in service with the 128th Composite Air Division. End Quote.
That does not count the one above that Yves mentioned. I will have to look around but I thought I had one B-25 picture some where that had Soviet markings but that they left the nose art alone on the aircraft. Maybe I can get lucky and find it again.
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #406
You can find a list of some of the crew interned in Russia on the 77th bomb squadron web page. link below
Paul, can you post a copy of the front page/cover of this book? I wonder if it's the one I know or not.
Kotelnikov has compiled several books through the years and some of them have been revised too.
Regards!
- Thread starter
- #408
Hi Paul, checking your posts from the time of my absence I saw the above quoted one.
The a/c on the photo is a PBJ-1J from the VMB-612. As you mention many of those (if not all) "Marine-Mitchells" had their defense armament removed, once the squadron moved overseas. Please note this was not the case with all PBJ-squadrons. They all had different use and assignments in the Pacific theater.
All PBJs have been delivered to the Navy resp. to the Marines in 2 factory camo-schemes: the 2-tone (early) and the 3-tone (late). The overall dark blue (AFAIK Gloss Sea Blue ANA 623) was applied later in the Navy/Marine bases. Not all of the squadrons changed the camo but VMB-612 is one of them, repainting most of the PBJs before moving to Saipan in the fall of 1944. BTW VMB-612 was the last active PBJ-squadron.
The a/c in your photo has also the "football" antenna (ADF) removed from the standard place for a -J model (under the cockpit) and placed in the location used on earlier (C, D, G) models. This might be a post-war photo (see below).
Here is another -J model with rockets but with the earlier "hose nose" (the radar housing); no defensive armament:
A photo of another a/c from the same squadron, a -J with its full armament though. Please note that this is not a solid-nose strafer, but a glass-nose bomber with overpainted navigator's glazing. Radar housing should be on the tip of the right wing, football-antenna is in the standard location:
The same unit used "Tiny Tim" rockets as well:
All photos are from the book "Marine Mitchells in WWII" by Jerry Scutts.
I remember writing about VMB-612 earlier. It's here - post #97.
I'm attaching a very interesting interview with Lt.Col. Cram, USMC, CO. of VMB-612 about equipment, armament and tactics. IMHO very informative.
Cheers!
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #411
Morning Yves, currently at work but yeah I was only referring to the weapon layout of the one aircraft that was pictured, Agreed that the PBJ squadrons armament was just as diverse and confusing as the USAAF. Looking forward to reading your article when I get home. By chance I heard that the radar pod in the wing was a field modification as they thought it was a better place then in the nose. Do you know any more about that aspect? I had just read the book the The Flight Jacket: A novel about VMB-612, The Marine Corps B-25 PBJ night bombing squadron if your interested. I do have the book you posted above. Read it about 8 years ago. I probably need to break it out again and read it again. I also have a copy of The Bombers of Magszam: A History of Marine bombing squadron 611 though been years since I read that as well.
Many thanks
Paul
Many thanks
Paul
- Thread starter
- #412
While reading yesterday before I went to bed I found this page at the Aircorps Online library in a North American Weekly News letter Vol 2 number 14. As per the picture above it shows that the US had a similar system though I have not seen any pictures of it yet.
Going through the above site (and photos) I found some old and some newer information, compared to what I had from earlier years. Unfortunately older sites I have saved as html do not open anymore - I must try the Waybackmachine.You can find a list of some of the crew interned in Russia on the 77th bomb squadron web page. link below
From site to site I found this one - it's new to me. I never stop wondering how many and how different the B-25 armament systems, modifications and additions were. As somebody stated years ago: No two "Mitchells" were exactly the same!
At the above address one will find a rather unique nose armament of a B-25 ( IMHO a -C, could be an early -D as well) from the 77-th BS. in the Aleutians:
The yagi-antenna is visible too. I don't know what type of antenna is the small one, under the pilot's position, but it's another unique element. Note the gun-sight in front of the pilot too. This is the full photo for those who do not visit third sites:
Cheers!
Greg Boeser
1st Sergeant
Interesting history link.
Reading through the unit history, I note a number of errors. The history mentions two crashes in early 1942 involving B-26s. Consulting aviationarcheology.com database, both crashes actually involved B-18As.
Reading through the unit history, I note a number of errors. The history mentions two crashes in early 1942 involving B-26s. Consulting aviationarcheology.com database, both crashes actually involved B-18As.
Greg, this is a B-25 thread
.
Greg Boeser
1st Sergeant
The 77th lost a lot of B-25s attacking the Kurils. Many ended up in Russia.
Greg Boeser
1st Sergeant
Is that better?Greg, this is a B-25 thread
- Thread starter
- #418
I would love to see the drawings of the inside mounting of this one for the nose guns. As close as those front guns are I bet the feed system was a night mare. As far as the antenna on the out side of the pilot seat I am at a loss for now.
So many questions and the more notes to update
, The first picture I had seen before but the second one is new to me. I started reading your pdf on the 612 squadron, Lot of interesting stuff to say the least for anyone interested in the Mitchell.I've seen similar looking antennae on radar equipped a/cs (PBY, PB4Y etc.) but they are usually vertical. I believe I have a scheme with the exact name of the antenna below:I would love to see the drawings of the inside mounting of this one for the nose guns. As close as those front guns are I bet the feed system was a night mare. As far as the antenna on the out side of the pilot seat I am at a loss for now.
So many questions and the more notes to update
The Aleutian Mitchells had used some early types of radar so my guess is it's exactly this. Now, when I saw it in detail, I could see it on a famous photo as well: My Buddy, #74:
Cheers!
- Thread starter
- #420
