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- #481
B-25 weapons thread
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Just found a good description of an early B-25 modification in the SWPA, before the strafer with the 4-gun nose was born. Judging by the description it's a glazed nose bomber with 1 flexible 0.50 and 2 flexible 0.30 guns in the nose (shooting through the ball sockets), standard turrets and (attention!) 2x0.30 guns through the waist windows, no tail gun.
Waist windows in this case are the existing rear windows, not big modified waist windows. I have a photo of an a/c as described:
The above excerpt is from this book, Air Combat at 20 Feet: Selected Missions from a Strafer Pilot's Diary which I haven't seen before:
And this is the author Garrett Middlebrook from the 38-th BG:
Is anybody familiar with this book?
Waist windows in this case are the existing rear windows, not big modified waist windows. I have a photo of an a/c as described:
The above excerpt is from this book, Air Combat at 20 Feet: Selected Missions from a Strafer Pilot's Diary which I haven't seen before:
And this is the author Garrett Middlebrook from the 38-th BG:
Is anybody familiar with this book?
Greg Boeser
1st Sergeant
Yes. Those modifications occurred very early. The waist guns were installed basically when the 3rd BG acquired their first B-25s in early 1942. The nose gun was originally a .30, and could be moved between the three ball sockets in the nose compartment. Combat proved the necessity of heavier forward firepower. Following a pair of costly attacks on Lea in May 1942, the side sockets received additional .30s, and the front socket reinforced to take a .50. By July 1942 this was standard.
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- #484
I read his book a couple of times and find something new every time I read it and have quoted a few B-25 configurations in other parts of this thread though not on that. Very in depth book and highly recommended read for any one interested in the strafing low level war.
Thank you, Paul! Your word is the proof that this book
You just added some more security to my choice!
Cheers!
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And as an addition to my previous post #482: after a very long search on the www I found a matching photo of a B-25 with 3-guns in the nose, as described in the above mentioned book. I was really guessing what was the standard nose armament before the modification. It was 1 fixed and 1 flexible gun. The fixed has been removed (see patched opening) and 2x0.30 flexible added.
I must say this is the first time after so many years of B-25 research to find such modification. One never knows....
Photo copied from this very interesting article, worth reading!
Cheers!
I must say this is the first time after so many years of B-25 research to find such modification. One never knows....
Photo copied from this very interesting article, worth reading!
Cheers!
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- #487
Yves you may find this interesting, From the book Harvest of the Grim Reapers by Lawrence J Hickey and Edward M Rogers.
First picture is in the book but I got this one from this website link above picture. Second one is scanned out of the book.
Reason for crash was lift raft came out and hit stabilizer with the CO2 inflation bottle jamming the rudder. This aircraft is believed to be the first strafer with the 3rd bomb group and did a few strafer runs with the crews modified single machine gun in nose showing in the lower left corner of the nose before its crash landing due to combat damage releasing the life raft.
First picture is in the book but I got this one from this website link above picture. Second one is scanned out of the book.
Reason for crash was lift raft came out and hit stabilizer with the CO2 inflation bottle jamming the rudder. This aircraft is believed to be the first strafer with the 3rd bomb group and did a few strafer runs with the crews modified single machine gun in nose showing in the lower left corner of the nose before its crash landing due to combat damage releasing the life raft.
Paul, thank you very much for this addition!
I know "El Diablo" from the above mentioned site and it was one of the early modified B-25s I've seen, with 3 ball-sockets for flexible machine guns in the upper nose, but didn't know the fixed gun was a mod
. Maybe there is a 4-th ball socket in the lower scanning window, maybe not, but the standard in the nose was left, front and bottom only. I believe they have taken the bottom socket out and mounted it on the right side. The second picture of the same a/c shows this very well:This is the standard 3-point 0.30 guns armament from the factory (1 in the nose, 1 left side, 1 bottom side):
What I haven't seen before or at least not so well pronounced was the tail cone with the single gun. I don't have Hickey's book and stopped focusing on Pacific Mitchells at some point, but nevertheless it's a great detail: ball socket in the tail cone!
And here's my surprise (if any) for you:
Different side of the Earth, different Mitchells. 12-th Bomb. Group (M), the first to be transferred to North Africa. Dozens of modifications in the MTO but one of the earliest was this:
a/c # 33 has a tail gun, no ventral turret but handheld gun(s) and check the nose - a ball socket on the right side. 33 is newer a/c than El Diablo so they might have copied the Pacific mods in Africa or just developed them separately. Great minds think alike!
Cheers!
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- Thread starter
- #490
Paul, thank you very much for this addition!
I know "El Diablo" from the above mentioned site and it was one of the early modified B-25s I've seen, with 3 ball-sockets for flexible machine guns in the upper nose, but didn't know the fixed gun was a mod
View attachment 673017
What I haven't seen before or at least not so well pronounced was the tail cone with the single gun. I don't have Hickey's book and stopped focusing on Pacific Mitchells at some point, but nevertheless it's a great detail: ball socket in the tail cone!
And here's my surprise (if any) for you:
Different side of the Earth, different Mitchells. 12-th Bomb. Group (M), the first to be transferred to North Africa. Dozens of modifications in the MTO but one of the earliest was this:
a/c # 33 has a tail gun, no ventral turret but handheld gun(s) and check the nose - a ball socket on the right side. 33 is newer a/c than El Diablo so they might have copied the Pacific mods in Africa or just developed them separately. Great minds think alike!
View attachment 673018
View attachment 673019
View attachment 673020
Cheers!
Afternoon Yves, all of this is very interesting. I have seen some of the modification's you have posted but never went around counting or looking for ball sockets till your last few posts.
I forget where I read it but I believe book two of two of the Grimm Reapers is supposed to come out in September. Hoping it is on time as from what I heard there is supposed to be big section on modifications by Pappy Gunn to the Mitchell so really looking forward and hope its true.
It just amazes me that we are still finding modifications and well pictures I have seen for years and I never realized had modifications and have over looked them for years.
I mean just a good example of my vacation a few weeks ago. I never noticed in the museum that this B-25 had the pilot armor installed as you can see below. Picture below taken by me a month ago that I cropped out.
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Greg Boeser
1st Sergeant
According to the book, "EL DIABLO" had a hole cut in the plexiglas, and the fixed gun was mounted to the floor.Paul, thank you very much for this addition!
I know "El Diablo" from the above mentioned site and it was one of the early modified B-25s I've seen, with 3 ball-sockets for flexible machine guns in the upper nose, but didn't know the fixed gun was a mod
View attachment 673017
What I haven't seen before or at least not so well pronounced was the tail cone with the single gun. I don't have Hickey's book and stopped focusing on Pacific Mitchells at some point, but nevertheless it's a great detail: ball socket in the tail cone!
And here's my surprise (if any) for you:
Different side of the Earth, different Mitchells. 12-th Bomb. Group (M), the first to be transferred to North Africa. Dozens of modifications in the MTO but one of the earliest was this:
a/c # 33 has a tail gun, no ventral turret but handheld gun(s) and check the nose - a ball socket on the right side. 33 is newer a/c than El Diablo so they might have copied the Pacific mods in Africa or just developed them separately. Great minds think alike!
View attachment 673018
View attachment 673019
View attachment 673020
Cheers!
Paul, you're absolutely right - every time you look at a "Mitchell" after checking some new source and you find a dozen of new details or small "things". I became "obsessed"
with the ball and socket mounts of the early -,A, B, C and D models when researching the first production batch of B-25NA (no block letter). I'm sure we both wrote earlier in this thread mentioning it - e.g. see my post # 434.But before knowing there were modifications of this type of nose armament, it was all one and the same for me. Then I started seeing ball and socket mounts on both sides of the nose and figured something's going on. BTW there is a very nice scheme with the standard nose of early C/Ds in the Warbirdtech series - book by Frederick Johnsen (page 63).
And going back to "El Diablo"'s photo you posted earlier - I checked the rest of the photos in the 13-th BS collection and here's the one showing the bottom of the nose as well:
The ball and socket mount in the floor window (far right) is patched over - look for dark circle. Ergo, it was not in use. The new one (field modification) on the right side is clearly visible. I can't see if there is a fixed gun there, but probably there is one. And as Greg mentioned above, if it was bolted to the floor, the floor ball and socket mount couldn't be used at all.
I kind of remember reading memoirs of a bombardier in an early a/c like those above, that it was virtually impossible to jump with a 0.30 mm gun in the hands from one socket to another and try to shoot the enemy down, when the a/c was in the air. I just forgot were....
But it's quite logical to add more guns, shooting in all directions, rather than moving a single one.
Amazing things, aren't they?
Cheers!
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- Thread starter
- #493
Agreed, here are some data info on the ball sockets.
All the best
Paul
All the best
Paul
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- Thread starter
- #495
Yes indeed! I love the Gs and especially the G-modifications, which don't stop to show from every corner of WWII history.Yves, I bet you will find this interesting since you like the G model
Besides the interesting technical information you posted about the armor plate in the G-nose, the second part of the text is even more interesting. Lets check the serial numbers:
42-64802 - 42-65101 are B-25G Block 5 (300)
42-65102 - 42-65201 are B-25G Block 10 (100)
XB-25G was a former B-25C-1 s/n 41-13296 - IMHO this one was never included in the number of modified earlier B-25 models.
We know that Block 1 consisted of only 5 a/c and they were all modified B-25C-15, s/n 43-32384 - 42-32388 (5)
We also know that 58 B-25C-20 and B-25C-25 have been converted into B-25 G in the Kansas City mod center (which was in the B-25 factory) and in the Republic mod center in Evansville.
58+5=63
As per the above document 95 B-25 from previous versions have been modified into B-25G.
95-63=32
Ergo, another 32 B-25C and D have been modified as well.
And here's the point: if you see a photo of B-25G, no matter what block, modification or else, please check the serial number (if possible) and compare with the existing listings, e.g. here.
You might be surprised what you have found.
For example:
If you check the s/n of this B-25G you'll find that it belongs to a B-25C-25. No mistake here, this was one of the 58 modified B-25C (see above).
Or this:
This is from a mission of the 381st BS., 310-th BG., 12-th AAF in the MTO, 25.January 1944. All a/c are G- model as noted. 42-65097 and 42-65092 are B-25G-5 as I listed them in the beginning. That's fine. What about 42-32464? Not in the list of the G-models.
This is in fact a modified B-25C-15. Bingo! This is one of the 32 "other" modifications. 42-32488 is a B-25C-15 as well.
I haven't had the luck to find a modified B-25D into G but the search continues!
Cheers!
Greg Boeser
1st Sergeant
- Thread starter
- #498
So I have been reading North American's weekly service bulletins when I ran across this in Vol 2 Number 36 tonight from the Aircorps library. Link if your a member Log in | AirCorps Library
I found this very interesting and wondering how much this would affect current restorations and models on how we think on painting the B-25. Since it covers most of the weapons compartments I will add here.
I found this very interesting and wondering how much this would affect current restorations and models on how we think on painting the B-25. Since it covers most of the weapons compartments I will add here.
special ed
2nd Lieutenant
- 5,602
- May 13, 2018
Thanks for the crew list. A possible relative there. It will be sent to my 2nd daughter who tracks such things.Yes indeed! I love the Gs and especially the G-modifications, which don't stop to show from every corner of WWII history.
Besides the interesting technical information you posted about the armor plate in the G-nose, the second part of the text is even more interesting. Lets check the serial numbers:
42-64802 - 42-65101 are B-25G Block 5 (300)
42-65102 - 42-65201 are B-25G Block 10 (100)
XB-25G was a former B-25C-1 s/n 41-13296 - IMHO this one was never included in the number of modified earlier B-25 models.
We know that Block 1 consisted of only 5 a/c and they were all modified B-25C-15, s/n 43-32384 - 42-32388 (5)
We also know that 58 B-25C-20 and B-25C-25 have been converted into B-25 G in the Kansas City mod center (which was in the B-25 factory) and in the Republic mod center in Evansville.
58+5=63
As per the above document 95 B-25 from previous versions have been modified into B-25G.
95-63=32
Ergo, another 32 B-25C and D have been modified as well.
And here's the point: if you see a photo of B-25G, no matter what block, modification or else, please check the serial number (if possible) and compare with the existing listings, e.g. here.
You might be surprised what you have found.
For example:
View attachment 673361
If you check the s/n of this B-25G you'll find that it belongs to a B-25C-25. No mistake here, this was one of the 58 modified B-25C (see above).
Or this:
View attachment 673362
This is from a mission of the 381st BS., 310-th BG., 12-th AAF in the MTO, 25.January 1944. All a/c are G- model as noted. 42-65097 and 42-65092 are B-25G-5 as I listed them in the beginning. That's fine. What about 42-32464? Not in the list of the G-models.
This is in fact a modified B-25C-15. Bingo! This is one of the 32 "other" modifications. 42-32488 is a B-25C-15 as well.
I haven't had the luck to find a modified B-25D into G but the search continues!
Cheers!
Greg Boeser
1st Sergeant
John Haile Cloe, Mission to the Kurils, lists three B-25Gs assigned to 77th BS.
42-64670
42-64706
42-64754 - twice
42-64670
42-64706
42-64754 - twice
