B24D question.

Discussion in 'Aircraft Requests' started by syscom3, Dec 26, 2014.

  1. syscom3

    syscom3 Pacific Historian

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    Did B24D's flying in 1942/43 in the PTO have a non-turret open rear gunner station? Not the turret version I always thought they had.
     
  2. daveT

    daveT Member

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    An example of this is in the movie Unbroken.
     
  3. vikingBerserker

    vikingBerserker Well-Known Member

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    I believe author Alan Griffith talks about it in Consolidated Mess. My copy is currently inaccessible.
     
  4. syscom3

    syscom3 Pacific Historian

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    Thats why I am asking. And I thought the belly turrets were removed too.
     
  5. fubar57

    fubar57 Well-Known Member

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    #5 fubar57, Dec 26, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2014
    Been through 7 books, 12 to go and nada. Of course, that's not to say there weren't

    Geo

    EDIT; Cross posted with Syscom3. I did see a photo that looked like the ball turret was removed and it looked like twin MGs sticking out of the hole. I'll have to go find it again and check to see if it had a rear turret
     
  6. vikingBerserker

    vikingBerserker Well-Known Member

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    I am only finding the "J" model with the open rear guns. I came a cross a picture of one taken in the Ellica Islands in May 1943.
     
  7. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

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    #7 GrauGeist, Dec 26, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2014
    The ball turrets started to appear midway through the D types during 1943...up to that point, there was a "tunnel gun" position...

    To get a good idea of what an early type (pre-turret) looks like, check out the CAF's B-24A. It has the "tunnel gun" position and the single .50 on a pintle-mount in the open tail position.

    * Here, I added this link to a page that shows excellent detail of both the tail position and the tunnel.

    Flying in the CAF's B-24A Ol'927 on February 26, 2011
     
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  8. Aaron Brooks Wolters

    Aaron Brooks Wolters Well-Known Member

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  9. fubar57

    fubar57 Well-Known Member

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    Found a photo of a B-24A without a tail turret and a single Browning. Three As were destroyed in the Pacific but before '43.

    Geo
     
  10. syscom3

    syscom3 Pacific Historian

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    Zamperini flew with the 307th BG in that time frame which were in that area.
     
  11. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

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    Check the link I posted up there, detailed interior and exterior shots of the turretless type
     
  12. T Bolt

    T Bolt Well-Known Member

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    Picture 1 shows the standard tunnel gun mount used on early B-24Ds located in the hatch to the rear of the waist gun position. By Dad, a gunner on them said you couldn't hit crap with it.
    Picture 2 and 3 show the tail gun installation you asked about. I do remember hearing somewhere it was a modification on some B-24s in the Pacific.
    Picture 4 shows the manual gun installation replacing the ball turret. I believe this was also a modification in the Pacific. It's very hard to find pictures of it. I remember seeing an interior picture of it somewhere but I could not locate it in my files.
     

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  13. fubar57

    fubar57 Well-Known Member

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    Very nice. I wonder where I can scrounge up 400$US(2,500,000$CAN)

    Geo
     
  14. nuuumannn

    nuuumannn Well-Known Member

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    I hope this is of interest. B-24Ds were nominally built with the Consolidated A-6 tail turret, as was the preceding B-24C, but, like Dave stated, early production B-24Ds had the tunnel gun under the belly like the 'C model. It's possible that turrets might have been removed after delivery or even delivered before the turret had been fitted on the production line. RAF Liberator IIs - the first Liberator variant fitted with turret armament - were delivered unarmed to the UK and were armed on arrival. Info on the Liberator II: Consolidated Liberator II B-24C: Consolidated B-24C Liberator and 'D: Consolidated B-24D Liberator

    The RAF ordered B-24Ds directly from America before Lend Lease and these were designated Liberator IIIs. In Britain the Consolidated tail turret was removed and a Boulton Paul four .303 gun turret fitted in its place, as the Liberator II had fitted. See here, from this site:

    http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/at...59d1348346552t-coastal-command-24s-pblib2.jpg

    The four gun tail turret on this 120 Sqn GR.III can be made out:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rs_120_and_86_Sqn_RAF_at_Aldergrove_c1943.jpg

    Later Liberator IIIs received through Lend Lease kept the American armament and these were designated Liberator IIIAs and were initially indistinguishable from B-24Ds before modification in Britain. The Liberator II, however was delivered to Britain unarmed and BP turrets were fitted in the tail and mid upper position, but some went into service without an aft turret. See here:

    http://crusaderproject.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/032612_1542_thefirstb242.jpg?w=660

    Here's an interesting pic of a B-24D tail section without turret fitted. This aircraft B-24D 42-40387 crashed in Queensland, Australia:

    http://en.tracesofwar.com/upload/0609091109013354.jpg
     
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  15. varsity07840

    varsity07840 Member

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    The earliest B-24Ds had a Bendix remote ventral turret, the same as on B-25s. Those with the turret had them removed and replaced with a tunnel gun, which was also introduced in the factory and remained so until replaced by the ball turret in late production Ds. The Hawaiian Air Depot modified B-24Ds for the
    7th 13th Air Forces, by moving the tail turret to the nose, adding manual tail guns and ball turrets.
    5th AF aircraft retained the tail turret, added a turret to the nose and ring mounted ventral guns.
    J,L,and M models had the ball turret replaced by the ring guns. 7th 13th AF Js replaced the tail turret with manual guns, or power boost M-5 or M-6 mounts. They usually retained the ball turret.

    Duane
     
  16. Capt. Vick

    Capt. Vick Well-Known Member

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    The guy in the second picture always cracks me up. It's like he's say "Yeah, don't bother it's wrecked and everyone is dead".
     
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  17. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
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    Great info - this coincides with what was depicted in the movie. Zamperini flew with the 372nd BS, 302nd BG, 7th AF.
     
  18. bobbysocks

    bobbysocks Well-Known Member

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    thanks for the links and the pics. my wife is reading the book and i sent those links to her so she can visualize as she reads....
     
  19. varsity07840

    varsity07840 Member

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    #19 varsity07840, Dec 30, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2014
    Ok, I'm going to nit pick. Just saw the movie. The single tail gun is strictly B-24A. The waist gun position don't have wind deflectors, true for very early "Ds" but not 1943. Theater greenhouse nose
    B-24Ds usually had four nose guns, two, mounted high and low in the nose piece and two cheek guns. Ball turrets were installed by the Hawaiian Air Depot at the same time as nose turrets. Greenhouse "Ds" had tunnel guns. Having said all of the above, a much better than average depiction.

    Duane

    Post script:

    How did researchers allow an A/C with prewar red disc in star insignia appear in Louie's homecoming in 1945?
     
  20. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
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    I caught that too - it's only for a few seconds but glaring to "the informed."
     
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