syscom3
Pacific Historian
Did B24D's flying in 1942/43 in the PTO have a non-turret open rear gunner station? Not the turret version I always thought they had.
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
daveT
Senior Airman
An example of this is in the movie Unbroken.
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
I believe author Alan Griffith talks about it in Consolidated Mess. My copy is currently inaccessible.
- Thread starter
- #4
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Thats why I am asking. And I thought the belly turrets were removed too.
fubar57
General
Been through 7 books, 12 to go and nada. Of course, that's not to say there weren't
Geo
EDIT; Cross posted with Syscom3. I did see a photo that looked like the ball turret was removed and it looked like twin MGs sticking out of the hole. I'll have to go find it again and check to see if it had a rear turret
Geo
EDIT; Cross posted with Syscom3. I did see a photo that looked like the ball turret was removed and it looked like twin MGs sticking out of the hole. I'll have to go find it again and check to see if it had a rear turret
Last edited:
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
I am only finding the "J" model with the open rear guns. I came a cross a picture of one taken in the Ellica Islands in May 1943.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The ball turrets started to appear midway through the D types during 1943...up to that point, there was a "tunnel gun" position...
To get a good idea of what an early type (pre-turret) looks like, check out the CAF's B-24A. It has the "tunnel gun" position and the single .50 on a pintle-mount in the open tail position.
* Here, I added this link to a page that shows excellent detail of both the tail position and the tunnel.
Flying in the CAF's B-24A Ol'927 on February 26, 2011
To get a good idea of what an early type (pre-turret) looks like, check out the CAF's B-24A. It has the "tunnel gun" position and the single .50 on a pintle-mount in the open tail position.
* Here, I added this link to a page that shows excellent detail of both the tail position and the tunnel.
Flying in the CAF's B-24A Ol'927 on February 26, 2011
Last edited:
Aaron Brooks Wolters
Brigadier General
Great info Dave!
fubar57
General
Found a photo of a B-24A without a tail turret and a single Browning. Three As were destroyed in the Pacific but before '43.
Geo
Geo
- Thread starter
- #10
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Zamperini flew with the 307th BG in that time frame which were in that area.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Check the link I posted up there, detailed interior and exterior shots of the turretless type
T Bolt
Colonel
Picture 1 shows the standard tunnel gun mount used on early B-24Ds located in the hatch to the rear of the waist gun position. By Dad, a gunner on them said you couldn't hit crap with it.
Picture 2 and 3 show the tail gun installation you asked about. I do remember hearing somewhere it was a modification on some B-24s in the Pacific.
Picture 4 shows the manual gun installation replacing the ball turret. I believe this was also a modification in the Pacific. It's very hard to find pictures of it. I remember seeing an interior picture of it somewhere but I could not locate it in my files.
Picture 2 and 3 show the tail gun installation you asked about. I do remember hearing somewhere it was a modification on some B-24s in the Pacific.
Picture 4 shows the manual gun installation replacing the ball turret. I believe this was also a modification in the Pacific. It's very hard to find pictures of it. I remember seeing an interior picture of it somewhere but I could not locate it in my files.
Attachments
fubar57
General
I hope this is of interest. B-24Ds were nominally built with the Consolidated A-6 tail turret, as was the preceding B-24C, but, like Dave stated, early production B-24Ds had the tunnel gun under the belly like the 'C model. It's possible that turrets might have been removed after delivery or even delivered before the turret had been fitted on the production line. RAF Liberator IIs - the first Liberator variant fitted with turret armament - were delivered unarmed to the UK and were armed on arrival. Info on the Liberator II: Consolidated Liberator II B-24C: Consolidated B-24C Liberator and 'D: Consolidated B-24D Liberator
The RAF ordered B-24Ds directly from America before Lend Lease and these were designated Liberator IIIs. In Britain the Consolidated tail turret was removed and a Boulton Paul four .303 gun turret fitted in its place, as the Liberator II had fitted. See here, from this site:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/at...59d1348346552t-coastal-command-24s-pblib2.jpg
The four gun tail turret on this 120 Sqn GR.III can be made out:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rs_120_and_86_Sqn_RAF_at_Aldergrove_c1943.jpg
Later Liberator IIIs received through Lend Lease kept the American armament and these were designated Liberator IIIAs and were initially indistinguishable from B-24Ds before modification in Britain. The Liberator II, however was delivered to Britain unarmed and BP turrets were fitted in the tail and mid upper position, but some went into service without an aft turret. See here:
http://crusaderproject.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/032612_1542_thefirstb242.jpg?w=660
Here's an interesting pic of a B-24D tail section without turret fitted. This aircraft B-24D 42-40387 crashed in Queensland, Australia:
http://en.tracesofwar.com/upload/0609091109013354.jpg
The RAF ordered B-24Ds directly from America before Lend Lease and these were designated Liberator IIIs. In Britain the Consolidated tail turret was removed and a Boulton Paul four .303 gun turret fitted in its place, as the Liberator II had fitted. See here, from this site:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/at...59d1348346552t-coastal-command-24s-pblib2.jpg
The four gun tail turret on this 120 Sqn GR.III can be made out:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rs_120_and_86_Sqn_RAF_at_Aldergrove_c1943.jpg
Later Liberator IIIs received through Lend Lease kept the American armament and these were designated Liberator IIIAs and were initially indistinguishable from B-24Ds before modification in Britain. The Liberator II, however was delivered to Britain unarmed and BP turrets were fitted in the tail and mid upper position, but some went into service without an aft turret. See here:
http://crusaderproject.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/032612_1542_thefirstb242.jpg?w=660
Here's an interesting pic of a B-24D tail section without turret fitted. This aircraft B-24D 42-40387 crashed in Queensland, Australia:
http://en.tracesofwar.com/upload/0609091109013354.jpg
varsity07840
Airman 1st Class
- 176
- Jun 25, 2013
The earliest B-24Ds had a Bendix remote ventral turret, the same as on B-25s. Those with the turret had them removed and replaced with a tunnel gun, which was also introduced in the factory and remained so until replaced by the ball turret in late production Ds. The Hawaiian Air Depot modified B-24Ds for the
7th 13th Air Forces, by moving the tail turret to the nose, adding manual tail guns and ball turrets.
5th AF aircraft retained the tail turret, added a turret to the nose and ring mounted ventral guns.
J,L,and M models had the ball turret replaced by the ring guns. 7th 13th AF Js replaced the tail turret with manual guns, or power boost M-5 or M-6 mounts. They usually retained the ball turret.
Duane
7th 13th Air Forces, by moving the tail turret to the nose, adding manual tail guns and ball turrets.
5th AF aircraft retained the tail turret, added a turret to the nose and ring mounted ventral guns.
J,L,and M models had the ball turret replaced by the ring guns. 7th 13th AF Js replaced the tail turret with manual guns, or power boost M-5 or M-6 mounts. They usually retained the ball turret.
Duane
The guy in the second picture always cracks me up. It's like he's say "Yeah, don't bother it's wrecked and everyone is dead".
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Great info - this coincides with what was depicted in the movie. Zamperini flew with the 372nd BS, 302nd BG, 7th AF.
bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
thanks for the links and the pics. my wife is reading the book and i sent those links to her so she can visualize as she reads....
varsity07840
Airman 1st Class
- 176
- Jun 25, 2013
Ok, I'm going to nit pick. Just saw the movie. The single tail gun is strictly B-24A. The waist gun position don't have wind deflectors, true for very early "Ds" but not 1943. Theater greenhouse nose
B-24Ds usually had four nose guns, two, mounted high and low in the nose piece and two cheek guns. Ball turrets were installed by the Hawaiian Air Depot at the same time as nose turrets. Greenhouse "Ds" had tunnel guns. Having said all of the above, a much better than average depiction.
Duane
Post script:
How did researchers allow an A/C with prewar red disc in star insignia appear in Louie's homecoming in 1945?
B-24Ds usually had four nose guns, two, mounted high and low in the nose piece and two cheek guns. Ball turrets were installed by the Hawaiian Air Depot at the same time as nose turrets. Greenhouse "Ds" had tunnel guns. Having said all of the above, a much better than average depiction.
Duane
Post script:
How did researchers allow an A/C with prewar red disc in star insignia appear in Louie's homecoming in 1945?
Last edited:
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I caught that too - it's only for a few seconds but glaring to "the informed."
