Halifax III Mid Upper Gunner or Rear Gunner position.

[Pienske]

Hello all,

I am working on the investigation of a Halifax III that crashed in Wevelgem on 9 May 1944 (LW583 the QO-L of the 432 Sqdr) where I want to find out who was in the rear gunner seat. In the ORB I found the names Sgt. K.L. McCartney & Sgt. W.L. Cantlon. The role of the airman is marked as A/G for air gunner.

I was wondering if in a Halifax III (and all other bombers with air gunners) the gunner position was always taken by the same person.
Was each role a specialty? I mean if you are a rear gunner, will you be able to operate the mid-upper turret as well?
Or was the role really dedicated to one certain person, that was trained to operate that type of defense?

If it's the case that this role is really allocated to a certain person. Is there a way to find out in the crew composition from the RAF's ORB to know who was sitting where? Who was sitting in the rear gunner seat and who was in the mid-upper turret?

 

[AL90]

Checked the loss cards here but no indication who was mid upper and who was rear gunner. I asssume that they both had the same training and were interchangeable.

RAF Loss Cards 8 - 11 May 1944

lancasterbombersinfo.ipage.com

McMCartney was on his second trip and Canton on his first according to the Pilots service file page 29 on the link below.

Collection search

Application Description

recherche-collection-search.bac-lac.gc.ca

Hope this helps a bit.

 

[Crimea_River]

Calling G Geoffrey Sinclair

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Not sure I can help that much. Best reference in this situation is the Bomber Command Losses series by W.R. Chorley, he lists the 7 man crew as pilot, flight engineer, navigator, air bomber, wireless operator and 2 gunners. As far as I am aware he tries to list the rear gunner as the last name. The ORB lists the gunners as Sgt. McCartney and Sgt. Cantlon, Chorley lists them in the same order. No information on how interchangeable the gunners were, you would expect speciality given the turrets were different and their search areas very different. Finding log books is probably the only way to know for sure.

The RAFCommands web site handles a lot of personnel queries, asking there might provide more information. https://www.rafcommands.com/forum/

These do not tell you anything more, but might be useful for other queries
Royal Canadian Air Force operations record books - Héritage (C-12307 for relevant 432 Squadron entry)
https://www.bombercommandmuseumarchives.ca/halifaxfiles.pdf

 

[Pienske]

Checked the loss cards here but no indication who was mid upper and who was rear gunner. I asssume that they both had the same training and were interchangeable.

RAF Loss Cards 8 - 11 May 1944

lancasterbombersinfo.ipage.com

McMCartney was on his second trip and Canton on his first according to the Pilots service file page 29 on the link below.

Collection search

Application Description

recherche-collection-search.bac-lac.gc.ca

Hope this helps a bit.

Thanks for the info. What do I have to understand as "second trip"? I see that there was already 1 trip of 4:15 hours booked.
Does that mean that he was participating in his second operational mission? I see that the pilot has 2 trips with 8:45 hours booked. That would then say that he was flying his 3th operational mission.
The ones with NIL on their name... that means it was their first operational flight but it didn't finish successfully .
Do I read this correct?

 

[AL90]

Normally a crew formed at an OTU (Operational Training Unit), at the end of the course they would take part in a "Nickel" (leafleting raid) as a full crew which would not be classed as an oprational raid then transfer to an Operational Sqaudron. I can only guess that the the Pilot was a spare and had already completed two missions or that he was sent on two raids for experience. The ones with nil would be on their first bombing raid all be it unsuccessful. Happy for someone to enlighten me as it is all a bit of guess work as to the reasoning behind the crewing..

 

[tourswag]

From my Dad's log, research on his Aircrew and 427 Sqn ORB's the gunner positions were fixed- the R/G would have different clothing and different weapons than the M/UG. Each would have familiarity with the operation of the turret ( and for R/G the turret door) , weapons, and where to watch for danger. RCAF 427 ORBS list aircrew in this order: Captain, Navigator, Bomb Aimer, Wireless Op/ AG ( trained secondarily as air gunner), MU/G, R/G, Flight Engineer. On moving from Heavy Conversion Unit ( Halifax/ Lancaster) to Squadron the Captain would have 1 or often 2 trips as "Second Dickie" to observe how a Captain runs the crew on an operation. Other crew members may also fly as observers, esp Nav & Air Bomber.

 

[HP52]

Hello all,

I am working on the investigation of a Halifax III that crashed in Wevelgem on 9 May 1944 (LW583 the QO-L of the 432 Sqdr) where I want to find out who was in the rear gunner seat. In the ORB I found the names Sgt. K.L. McCartney & Sgt. W.L. Cantlon. The role of the airman is marked as A/G for air gunner.

I was wondering if in a Halifax III (and all other bombers with air gunners) the gunner position was always taken by the same person.
Was each role a specialty? I mean if you are a rear gunner, will you be able to operate the mid-upper turret as well?
Or was the role really dedicated to one certain person, that was trained to operate that type of defense?

If it's the case that this role is really allocated to a certain person. Is there a way to find out in the crew composition from the RAF's ORB to know who was sitting where? Who was sitting in the rear gunner seat and who was in the mid-upper turret?

From my knowledge they generally settled into a fixed position though they were cross trained and no reason not to swap except that it could confuse others as to where the voice was coming from!

 

[DAVID GILCHRIST]

Hello - I am new to this site/forum, but I believe I can provide some info to your query.
My maternal grandfather (John Dennis) was an air gunner in 76 Sqdn out of Holme on Spalding Moor during 1943. He was normally 'tail end charlie' in DK195 - pilot was Alf Kirkham. This aircraft was shot up during a raid over Mönchengladbach 30/31 August 1943 but the pilot & navigator, altho' both injured, managed to return the plane to Bradwell Bay, Essex, where they crashed. (Halifax V DK195 [Royal Air Force Aircraft Serial and Image Database]). DFM's were issued to the pilot and navigator - who were hospitalised and out of action for several weeks. My grandfather, unhurt, subsequently found himself without a crew - so was 'kicking his heels'.
He subsequently got the call to stand in for a mid-upper gunner (who had gone 'sick') on a mission in EB253 - pilot Birger Fjaervoll (Norwegian), over Hanover, Germany. Aircraft was shot up and was on fire and heading downward. One crew member managed to bale out, and all except my grandfather, were killed. During the crash he managed to get out of the turret, went aft to see if he could help the rear gunner get out, but the aircraft lurched downwards, throwing grandfather forward against a stanchion, smashing his leg/knee and breaking his back - multiple breaks/fractures. He somehow survived the crash, woke up in the wreckage looking down the barrel of a German gun and immediately asked for water.
The Germans, to their credit, hospitalised him and basically rebuilt his leg before sending him to POW camp - ending up in Heyderkrug Stalag Luft VI before repatriation in 1944. He had to wear a built up shoe to compensate for his shorter leg for the rest of his life. So, in answer to your question - it would appear air gunners were cross trained to operate in both upper and rear gunnery positions. If he had been in the rear turret that night he would not have been able to tell the tale. Hope this helps.

Best regards
David Gilchrist

 

[SaparotRob]

Welcome to Forum DAVID GILCHRIST. Great post!

 

[Buz101]

Just to help understand the gunner positions on Halifax's, I have reference to a Gunners logbook who flew as a Mid Upper at 1652HCU. He arrived on his Unit (still crewed with the same Pilot from HCU), and went on to fly from late Nov 1944 until Wars end both on OPS and other flights.

During this time, most of his flights were as the Mid Upper, however he completed a few flights as Rear Gunner including an Op to Hemmingstedt, so we can probably say they had a place they were comfortable, however could fly in both positions

Buz