Halifax III Mid Upper Gunner or Rear Gunner position.

[Pienske]

Hello all,

I am working on the investigation of a Halifax III that crashed in Wevelgem on 9 May 1944 (LW583 the QO-L of the 432 Sqdr) where I want to find out who was in the rear gunner seat. In the ORB I found the names Sgt. K.L. McCartney & Sgt. W.L. Cantlon. The role of the airman is marked as A/G for air gunner.

I was wondering if in a Halifax III (and all other bombers with air gunners) the gunner position was always taken by the same person.
Was each role a specialty? I mean if you are a rear gunner, will you be able to operate the mid-upper turret as well?
Or was the role really dedicated to one certain person, that was trained to operate that type of defense?

If it's the case that this role is really allocated to a certain person. Is there a way to find out in the crew composition from the RAF's ORB to know who was sitting where? Who was sitting in the rear gunner seat and who was in the mid-upper turret?

 

[AL90]

Checked the loss cards here but no indication who was mid upper and who was rear gunner. I asssume that they both had the same training and were interchangeable.

RAF Loss Cards 8 - 11 May 1944

lancasterbombersinfo.ipage.com

McMCartney was on his second trip and Canton on his first according to the Pilots service file page 29 on the link below.

Collection Search

Application Description

recherche-collection-search.bac-lac.gc.ca

Hope this helps a bit.

 

[Crimea_River]

Calling G Geoffrey Sinclair

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Not sure I can help that much. Best reference in this situation is the Bomber Command Losses series by W.R. Chorley, he lists the 7 man crew as pilot, flight engineer, navigator, air bomber, wireless operator and 2 gunners. As far as I am aware he tries to list the rear gunner as the last name. The ORB lists the gunners as Sgt. McCartney and Sgt. Cantlon, Chorley lists them in the same order. No information on how interchangeable the gunners were, you would expect speciality given the turrets were different and their search areas very different. Finding log books is probably the only way to know for sure.

The RAFCommands web site handles a lot of personnel queries, asking there might provide more information. https://www.rafcommands.com/forum/

These do not tell you anything more, but might be useful for other queries
Royal Canadian Air Force operations record books - Héritage (C-12307 for relevant 432 Squadron entry)
https://www.bombercommandmuseumarchives.ca/halifaxfiles.pdf

 

[Pienske]

Checked the loss cards here but no indication who was mid upper and who was rear gunner. I asssume that they both had the same training and were interchangeable.

RAF Loss Cards 8 - 11 May 1944

lancasterbombersinfo.ipage.com

McMCartney was on his second trip and Canton on his first according to the Pilots service file page 29 on the link below.

Collection Search

Application Description

recherche-collection-search.bac-lac.gc.ca

Hope this helps a bit.

Thanks for the info. What do I have to understand as "second trip"? I see that there was already 1 trip of 4:15 hours booked.
Does that mean that he was participating in his second operational mission? I see that the pilot has 2 trips with 8:45 hours booked. That would then say that he was flying his 3th operational mission.
The ones with NIL on their name... that means it was their first operational flight but it didn't finish successfully .
Do I read this correct?

 

[AL90]

Normally a crew formed at an OTU (Operational Training Unit), at the end of the course they would take part in a "Nickel" (leafleting raid) as a full crew which would not be classed as an oprational raid then transfer to an Operational Sqaudron. I can only guess that the the Pilot was a spare and had already completed two missions or that he was sent on two raids for experience. The ones with nil would be on their first bombing raid all be it unsuccessful. Happy for someone to enlighten me as it is all a bit of guess work as to the reasoning behind the crewing..

 

[tourswag]

From my Dad's log, research on his Aircrew and 427 Sqn ORB's the gunner positions were fixed- the R/G would have different clothing and different weapons than the M/UG. Each would have familiarity with the operation of the turret ( and for R/G the turret door) , weapons, and where to watch for danger. RCAF 427 ORBS list aircrew in this order: Captain, Navigator, Bomb Aimer, Wireless Op/ AG ( trained secondarily as air gunner), MU/G, R/G, Flight Engineer. On moving from Heavy Conversion Unit ( Halifax/ Lancaster) to Squadron the Captain would have 1 or often 2 trips as "Second Dickie" to observe how a Captain runs the crew on an operation. Other crew members may also fly as observers, esp Nav & Air Bomber.

 

[HP52]

Hello all,

I am working on the investigation of a Halifax III that crashed in Wevelgem on 9 May 1944 (LW583 the QO-L of the 432 Sqdr) where I want to find out who was in the rear gunner seat. In the ORB I found the names Sgt. K.L. McCartney & Sgt. W.L. Cantlon. The role of the airman is marked as A/G for air gunner.

I was wondering if in a Halifax III (and all other bombers with air gunners) the gunner position was always taken by the same person.
Was each role a specialty? I mean if you are a rear gunner, will you be able to operate the mid-upper turret as well?
Or was the role really dedicated to one certain person, that was trained to operate that type of defense?

If it's the case that this role is really allocated to a certain person. Is there a way to find out in the crew composition from the RAF's ORB to know who was sitting where? Who was sitting in the rear gunner seat and who was in the mid-upper turret?

From my knowledge they generally settled into a fixed position though they were cross trained and no reason not to swap except that it could confuse others as to where the voice was coming from!