Battle for Nanking
- Thread starter Thorlifter
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parsifal
Colonel
Hi Mike
No argument from me that thealleged acts of misconduct by the US army is grossly overblown. The fact also that the establishment put the guilty people on trial and went through due process is a testament to the high moral standards of the US Army.
Methinks you might be misunderstanding the point I was trying to make.....people have been tring to compare the US expereinces and activities in iraq and Vietnam with the activities of the Imperial Japanese Army in China. I think there is no valid comparison that can be made. One could care less about the protection of human life and the due processes of the law....the other was fighting a war, on behalf of others, trying to protect and keep free those "others".
There could be no greater difference between the two armies in my opinion.
No argument from me that thealleged acts of misconduct by the US army is grossly overblown. The fact also that the establishment put the guilty people on trial and went through due process is a testament to the high moral standards of the US Army.
Methinks you might be misunderstanding the point I was trying to make.....people have been tring to compare the US expereinces and activities in iraq and Vietnam with the activities of the Imperial Japanese Army in China. I think there is no valid comparison that can be made. One could care less about the protection of human life and the due processes of the law....the other was fighting a war, on behalf of others, trying to protect and keep free those "others".
There could be no greater difference between the two armies in my opinion.
mikewint
Captain
Parsifal, don't want to get off the topic on Nanking but US "atrocities" in Vietnam is one of my "buttons" (we all have them) i do Vietnam days at many high schools and I hear it over and over again, even today. Starting in about 1970 or so the entire character of the Army in Vietnam changed. everybody knew we were pulling out, all hope of victory was gone, no one wanted to be the last man to die there.
Guerrilla war I understand, the enemy is everywhere and no where, frustration builds. Is a "civilian" a true civilian or a soldier without uniform? Or the Mideast where rulers deliberately place military targets in residential, school, or hospital zones putting their own civilians at risk. Do you ignore those targets or try to hit them as surgically as possible as the 6'oclock news shows bloody children pulled out of wreckage However Nanking, to me, goes back to medieval warfare and even further back when conquering armies decimated entire cities putting whole populations "to the sword"
Most Germans were held accountable for their "war crimes" and a few Japanese, like Tojo, but large numbers were never prosecuted. Why? McAurther's Deal? Or were we afraid of a re-ignition of the war with a Kamakazie population.
As i recall the invasion of Japan called for an initial "million man" first wave
Guerrilla war I understand, the enemy is everywhere and no where, frustration builds. Is a "civilian" a true civilian or a soldier without uniform? Or the Mideast where rulers deliberately place military targets in residential, school, or hospital zones putting their own civilians at risk. Do you ignore those targets or try to hit them as surgically as possible as the 6'oclock news shows bloody children pulled out of wreckage However Nanking, to me, goes back to medieval warfare and even further back when conquering armies decimated entire cities putting whole populations "to the sword"
Most Germans were held accountable for their "war crimes" and a few Japanese, like Tojo, but large numbers were never prosecuted. Why? McAurther's Deal? Or were we afraid of a re-ignition of the war with a Kamakazie population.
As i recall the invasion of Japan called for an initial "million man" first wave
michaelmaltby
Colonel
In 1905 - when reporting the Russo-Japan War - no less an 'international-brotherhood-of-man-socialist' - Jack London remarked in his writings what a shock it was to see an Asiatic nation whipping a member of the European family of nations (my words, not Jack's 
).
You write: "Most Germans were held accountable for their "war crimes" and a few Japanese, like Tojo, but large numbers were never prosecuted. Why? McAurther's Deal? Or were we afraid of a re-ignition of the war with a Kamakazie population.
As i recall the invasion of Japan called for an initial "million man" first wave".
I don't think there was any sort of 'conspiracy'. Think how easily Germany got off THE FIRST TIME (1914-18 ).
Japan was thoroughly defeated in 1945 - not just by the A bombs. The Russian operation that started in August 1945 was rapid, masterful and all-encompassing. If the war had lasted another month the Russians would have unilaterally invaded the most northerly Home Island - Hokkaido.
The Japanese learned a lesson in 1945. The Germans DIDN'T in 1918 - and had to be taught again.
There is no point dwelling on Nanking - it happened, shouldn't be forgotten, etc. etc., has happened again - Rowanda. BUT - understanding the who/how/why of it is essential to human progress.
Nanking, IMHO, was a combination of vile racist loathing - the Japanese view at the time was that the Chinese were decadent beyond salvation. And Japanese history was in the process of turning around and turning outward. While always a warrior society - the warriors historically had been a Class. Come modern times with mass armies and you have to take peasants and everyday men and imbue them with "esprit du corps" - in this case the "code". A soldier who was drunk on the code was a very dangerous element - running amok in a conquered civilian population that he despised.
But the difference between Japan and Germany was that Japan is a "good" learner.
MM
__________________
).You write: "Most Germans were held accountable for their "war crimes" and a few Japanese, like Tojo, but large numbers were never prosecuted. Why? McAurther's Deal? Or were we afraid of a re-ignition of the war with a Kamakazie population.
As i recall the invasion of Japan called for an initial "million man" first wave".
I don't think there was any sort of 'conspiracy'. Think how easily Germany got off THE FIRST TIME (1914-18 ).
Japan was thoroughly defeated in 1945 - not just by the A bombs. The Russian operation that started in August 1945 was rapid, masterful and all-encompassing. If the war had lasted another month the Russians would have unilaterally invaded the most northerly Home Island - Hokkaido.
The Japanese learned a lesson in 1945. The Germans DIDN'T in 1918 - and had to be taught again.
There is no point dwelling on Nanking - it happened, shouldn't be forgotten, etc. etc., has happened again - Rowanda. BUT - understanding the who/how/why of it is essential to human progress.
Nanking, IMHO, was a combination of vile racist loathing - the Japanese view at the time was that the Chinese were decadent beyond salvation. And Japanese history was in the process of turning around and turning outward. While always a warrior society - the warriors historically had been a Class. Come modern times with mass armies and you have to take peasants and everyday men and imbue them with "esprit du corps" - in this case the "code". A soldier who was drunk on the code was a very dangerous element - running amok in a conquered civilian population that he despised.
But the difference between Japan and Germany was that Japan is a "good" learner.
MM
__________________
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- Thread starter
- #65
Thorlifter
Captain
WOW, many topics since I last visited this thread. Ok......
@TEC - I had forgotten the Japanese didn't sign the Geneva convention. Thanks for the reminder!
@Parcifal responding to Eric - I agree that, while the treatment of Japanese Americans was irresponsible (to say the least), it was not a war crime.
@Njaco - Michael and Parcifal gave you a few quick overviews and they are right. Just a little more information: The numbers have always been a source of disagreement. The number of women raped has ranged from 20,000 to as high as 80,000. This number is only surpassed by the treatment of Bengali women by Pakistani soldier in 1971 where an estimated 200,000-400,000 women were raped in Bangladesh in 9 months.
The number killed has ranged between 150,000 to 350,000. The IMTFE (International Military Tribunal of the Far East) estimates the number at 260,000 noncombatants. What makes these numbers so astounding is these people were killed in a 6-8 week time frame. Self edit: I had typed a couple of details of the rampage, but decided to remove them. Believe me, it was some of the worst acts of evil I have ever read.
Quote from "The Rape of Nanking"
"Using numbers killed alone, the Rape of Nanking surpasses much of the worst barbarism of the ages. The Japanese outdid the Romans at Carthage (only 150,000 died in the slaughter), the Christian armies during the Spanish Inquisition, and even some of the monstrosities of Timur Lenk, who killed 100,000 prisoners at Delhi in 1398 and built two towers of skills in Syria in 1400 and 1401."
@Parcifal - Just like your post that the breakdown during the Soviet occupation of Berlin was done by undiciplined recruits, most of the crimes in Nanking were done by the common soldier. I think the difference is the Soviet's acted on their own, while the Japanese were given the go ahead, and encouraged by their commanders. How they even made games and contests who could bayonet the most Chinese. How they used their swords to behead Chinese. There is photographic and newspaper articles of proof of both of these happening. The bayonet games was a big news story in the Japanese news paper "The Japan Advisor" with photos of the participants.
Japanese scholars believe the unmitigated aggression was brought about by a phenomenon called "the transfer of oppression." Japanese author Tanaka Yuki wrote about how soldiers were subjected to endless humiliation, such as being forced to wash the underwear of officers, or to stand while being slapped by officers until blood streamed from their face.
@TEC - I had forgotten the Japanese didn't sign the Geneva convention. Thanks for the reminder!
@Parcifal responding to Eric - I agree that, while the treatment of Japanese Americans was irresponsible (to say the least), it was not a war crime.
@Njaco - Michael and Parcifal gave you a few quick overviews and they are right. Just a little more information: The numbers have always been a source of disagreement. The number of women raped has ranged from 20,000 to as high as 80,000. This number is only surpassed by the treatment of Bengali women by Pakistani soldier in 1971 where an estimated 200,000-400,000 women were raped in Bangladesh in 9 months.
The number killed has ranged between 150,000 to 350,000. The IMTFE (International Military Tribunal of the Far East) estimates the number at 260,000 noncombatants. What makes these numbers so astounding is these people were killed in a 6-8 week time frame. Self edit: I had typed a couple of details of the rampage, but decided to remove them. Believe me, it was some of the worst acts of evil I have ever read.
Quote from "The Rape of Nanking"
"Using numbers killed alone, the Rape of Nanking surpasses much of the worst barbarism of the ages. The Japanese outdid the Romans at Carthage (only 150,000 died in the slaughter), the Christian armies during the Spanish Inquisition, and even some of the monstrosities of Timur Lenk, who killed 100,000 prisoners at Delhi in 1398 and built two towers of skills in Syria in 1400 and 1401."
@Parcifal - Just like your post that the breakdown during the Soviet occupation of Berlin was done by undiciplined recruits, most of the crimes in Nanking were done by the common soldier. I think the difference is the Soviet's acted on their own, while the Japanese were given the go ahead, and encouraged by their commanders. How they even made games and contests who could bayonet the most Chinese. How they used their swords to behead Chinese. There is photographic and newspaper articles of proof of both of these happening. The bayonet games was a big news story in the Japanese news paper "The Japan Advisor" with photos of the participants.
Japanese scholars believe the unmitigated aggression was brought about by a phenomenon called "the transfer of oppression." Japanese author Tanaka Yuki wrote about how soldiers were subjected to endless humiliation, such as being forced to wash the underwear of officers, or to stand while being slapped by officers until blood streamed from their face.
mikewint
Captain
MichaelM, i had 4 uncles in WWII in the marines and navy, one died on Iwo and another on a ship hit by a Kamikaze. i still remember to this day the others talking about how badly those kamikaze shook-up the entire ship's company. again as i recall there was a very real fear that an invasion of the home islands i.e. sacred soil would be met by the same type of kamikaze attacks. men, women, children triggering explosives as troops went by. the Russians would have met the same fate if they had invaded. that million man first wave would not have been the end of the slaughter. and what about the mental state of troops asked to endure such resistance? It was the reason Truman authorized the use of the bomb.
In my opinion Japanese war crimes far exceed the German and again in my opinion very few of Japan's war criminals were ever prosecuted. Why?
Again I do not mean to turn this thread away from Nanking but what of the crimes committed by Unit 731 code-named Maruta also on Chinese soil. I doubt if 1 in 1000 people have ever heard of this Unit and probably fewer in Japan. Yet the name Dr. Mengele is synonymous with these types of experiments
In my opinion Japanese war crimes far exceed the German and again in my opinion very few of Japan's war criminals were ever prosecuted. Why?
Again I do not mean to turn this thread away from Nanking but what of the crimes committed by Unit 731 code-named Maruta also on Chinese soil. I doubt if 1 in 1000 people have ever heard of this Unit and probably fewer in Japan. Yet the name Dr. Mengele is synonymous with these types of experiments
michaelmaltby
Colonel
All your points are valid, Mikewint. But you wondered if Japan got off lightly. They did and they didn't. The Allies (General MacArthur) essentially took on the task of re-engineering Japanese society. That was not done in Germany in 1918. The country was "demilitarized" but (for example) the Kaiser's decision to abdicate was not imposed on Germany - it was a voluntary decision.
If the Russians had had to attack Hokkaido - the casualties would have been horrific - but that wouldn't have stopped Stalin.
As for kamikaze attacks - unfortunately it proved to be the kind of asymmetrical weapon like the IED and suicide bomber in today's war on Islamic extremism. And when an enemy under-values their own lives it sadly brutalizes the whole conflict - as history records on the Eastern Front.
MM
If the Russians had had to attack Hokkaido - the casualties would have been horrific - but that wouldn't have stopped Stalin.
As for kamikaze attacks - unfortunately it proved to be the kind of asymmetrical weapon like the IED and suicide bomber in today's war on Islamic extremism. And when an enemy under-values their own lives it sadly brutalizes the whole conflict - as history records on the Eastern Front.
MM
tail end charlie
Senior Airman
- 615
- Aug 24, 2010
Everybody is politely skirting around the issue. During WW2 Japanese with American citizenship were incarcerated while germans on the same status wernt. German prisoners of war were held in prisoner of war camps. In those camps German prisoners of war used the facilities of the white soldiers which were barred to black American servicemen. That is a German prisoner of war in a prison camp for german prisoners of war had higher status than a black serviceman in the US Army. Americans came first Americans of German ancestry came above black people, Japanese with American citizenship came below blacks and Japanese civilians/servicemen below that.
American civilians and were killed prior to Germany declaring war on the USA, and Americans fought against Germany prior to the declaration which was contravening the Geneva convention. The whole lease lend operation was a contravention of the Geneva convention for America as a neutral country anyway. In international law the flying tigers were mercenaries, if you want to invoke international laws then do it across the board.
American civilians and were killed prior to Germany declaring war on the USA, and Americans fought against Germany prior to the declaration which was contravening the Geneva convention. The whole lease lend operation was a contravention of the Geneva convention for America as a neutral country anyway. In international law the flying tigers were mercenaries, if you want to invoke international laws then do it across the board.
parsifal
Colonel
Hi TEC
Your last post is essentially that the US army suffered from racism? True enough, when judged by todays stadards. However, I have to raise two questions here....firstly, of relevance.....this has nothing to do with war crimes, except that Japoans unbridled racism was a factor in the massacre at Nanking. The sheer scale of the inicdent finds no equal in any western allied army that I can think of.
The second is that no nation is free of the racism card. The British army in this regard is as bad, if not worse than the US army. Saying that we are all racists proves nothing of itself. We are, but not all of us act on that flaw in our character. The Japanese did, and in so doing also permitted war crimes aplenty to occur
Your last post is essentially that the US army suffered from racism? True enough, when judged by todays stadards. However, I have to raise two questions here....firstly, of relevance.....this has nothing to do with war crimes, except that Japoans unbridled racism was a factor in the massacre at Nanking. The sheer scale of the inicdent finds no equal in any western allied army that I can think of.
The second is that no nation is free of the racism card. The British army in this regard is as bad, if not worse than the US army. Saying that we are all racists proves nothing of itself. We are, but not all of us act on that flaw in our character. The Japanese did, and in so doing also permitted war crimes aplenty to occur
mikewint
Captain
TEC, i would disagree with you with all due respect. we have 1st degree and second degree murder and manslaughter. all three involve the death of a human but are varying degrees with varying sentences. jananese-americans in interment camp is a crime but it was done legally by force of law through elected representatives. japanese-americans in these camps were not bayoneted, tortured, starved, or had contests seeing how many heads could be lopped off per hour nor were they subject to "medical experimentation". Blacks in the entire american nation were not treated equally and the army is a microcosm of society. in fact it was the war and the needs of the war that finally started blacks on the road to equality.
and lastly Roosevelt certainly "bent" the convention with Lend-Lease much as I might bend the letter of the law to help you, my neighbor. Flying tigers mercs, yes of course, is the employment of foreign nationals as a fighting force illegal by internation law? The French Foreign Legion might be surprised by that
and lastly Roosevelt certainly "bent" the convention with Lend-Lease much as I might bend the letter of the law to help you, my neighbor. Flying tigers mercs, yes of course, is the employment of foreign nationals as a fighting force illegal by internation law? The French Foreign Legion might be surprised by that
michaelmaltby
Colonel
We're getting off topic. What was Nanking and why did it happen?
MM
MM
mikewint
Captain
MichaelM, i think that the Kamikaze had an impact far far beyond the physical damage they caused. American in WWII were a pretty unsophisticated group and the mental impact of the Kamikaze un-nerved them well beyond physical damage.
one can only imagine the mental effect of women and children blowing themselves up would have had on a group of 18-19 yo in that million man invasion force.
as you observed McAurthur had to alter the entire society to prevent such a scenario. Stalin might have withstood such brutality but i don't think the average american could have survived such killing (least i hope its not in our character)
one can only imagine the mental effect of women and children blowing themselves up would have had on a group of 18-19 yo in that million man invasion force.
as you observed McAurthur had to alter the entire society to prevent such a scenario. Stalin might have withstood such brutality but i don't think the average american could have survived such killing (least i hope its not in our character)
tail end charlie
Senior Airman
- 615
- Aug 24, 2010
As I have said previously Berlin is an equal eithjer by systematic bombing or sytematic murder and rape, Russia was our ally and the attrocities committed by Russia were equal in severity and number to the Germans but no attempt was made to prosecute anybody.
The point I was making was not really about the USA it was about the world in 1930s/40s the whole world was fundamentally racist and maybe it still is.
tail end charlie
Senior Airman
- 615
- Aug 24, 2010
Nanking was a tragedy which was easily forseen. The head of the chinese army didnt want to defend it. It was a city which sybolised China as the capital but was impossible to defend. The Japanese were advancing from the East and Nankin had a river on its west side. For the Chinese it was impossible to retreat from and impossible to reinforce. As a capital the Japanese destroyed it and everyone in it as many capitals have been destroyed before.
parsifal
Colonel
Bombing is another issue, but in my view does not qualify as a war crime. The fundamental difference is that the germans initiated a war of agression, and secondly continued to resist, long after it was sensible or logical to do so. It is is not a war crime, of itself, to bomb civilian targets, or even to target civilians. That is provided their country continues to apply deadly resistance in the conflict, which the germans did in spades.
Incidentally I think your logic could also be applied to unrestricted U-Boat warfare, and even though Doenitz was incarcerated on that charge, it was not so much on the basis of the act being a war crime, merely that he was acting contrary to the hague convention. His relatively light sentence relects that tacit admission. There was no such convention with regard to bombing that I am aware of.
In any event, there is a world of difference between attacking civilian targets for stated and legitimate military reasons and unbridled and unresisted genocide. Thats the difference between the Allied bombing offensive and the Rape Of Nanking. Even though the Japanese since 1980 have jazzed their defence up to try and pass the actions of their army as serving legitimate military purposes, I simply dont buy it. The city had surrenderedand was offereing no resistance, this did not save them. Berlin had not surrendered and was continuing to resist. I fail to see the similarity after that.
With regard to the Russians, again there is no war crime that I know of. There were crimes, and many o them went unpunished, though you seem to deliberately ignore witness statements I produced for you that said there were military justice consequences in the russian army to these breaches of discipline.
You need to understand the essentials of what is a war crime, as opposed to just a crime. The best definition I could find (and ther is no universal statute that describes precisely what a war crime is) says that a war cime is
"Any of various crimes, such as genocide or the mistreatment of prisoners of war, committed during a war and considered in violation of the conventions of warfare." I would add my own twist to that in that it is not a war crime if it is a crime carried out by an individual (or small group), acting outside of orders, and those individuals or small groups are dealt with by the military justice system of that country. You have to study the avaialble case law to reach that point, but generally that is the position acquiesced by the International Court of Justice
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
Well said.
I think too many today throw around the words "war crimes" without really understanding what it means.
I think too many today throw around the words "war crimes" without really understanding what it means.
michaelmaltby
Colonel
"... the mental impact of the Kamikaze un-nerved them well beyond physical damage."
I am sure that is true and I do not underestimate the effect of the tactic. That is why 9-11 has been so traumatic.
But the point of true amazement was/is that just 25 years after the defeat of Japan, Americans are/were buying Honda's, Toyota's and Datsun's. That is how profound the redemption of Japanese society was. And yes, Americans are/were also buying VW's.
MM
I am sure that is true and I do not underestimate the effect of the tactic. That is why 9-11 has been so traumatic.
But the point of true amazement was/is that just 25 years after the defeat of Japan, Americans are/were buying Honda's, Toyota's and Datsun's. That is how profound the redemption of Japanese society was. And yes, Americans are/were also buying VW's
.MM
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tail end charlie
Senior Airman
- 615
- Aug 24, 2010
Parsifal the war crimes in Berlin (and east Germany) were committed by the Russians prior to after the Berlin surrendered women were raped and killed men were killed and transported back to camps in Russia, I have met their descendants. No one even considered taking Russia to task because they were taking revenge, the Hague and Geneva conventions didnt discuss revenge as far as I remember. I personally dont think bombing is a war crime, rape is a civilian crime and so is murder and arson, however when you count up the amount of arson rape and murder in Berlin then if that isnt a war crime then the term war crime doesnt exist.
The value of people like Lincoln, Ghandi and Mandela is to draw a line and not demand revenge. An eye for an eye leaves us all blind.
tail end charlie
Senior Airman
- 615
- Aug 24, 2010
I suggest you read about the conduct of the red army in Berlin and for example how many babies were born 9 months after its fall, erman women had to latch on to senior russian officers to protect them. Russia used the end of the conflict to eliminate opposition of approximate 20million losses by Russia approximately 7 million were from the Soviet Union killed by the soldiers Soviet Union but the Soviet Union was merely a name for countries occupied by Russia. When it comes to jazzing up history that is a gambit used by ALL countries throughout history.
The essentials of a war crime is the people who sit in judgement firstly decide that they havnt committed any war crimes. The Hague and Geneva are European cities where right minded people tried to form rules for warfare. It is a great idea but there is no precedent in Europe or anywhere else to my knowledge. A conquering army only behave in a civilized manner to the conquered when it is seen to be to their advantage.
tail end charlie
Senior Airman
- 615
- Aug 24, 2010
Unit 731 and most Japanese experiments were hushed up by the Allies because the USA gave the perpetrators, a job as they did with German rocket scientists. Werner von Braun was responsible for designing terror weapons which killed thousand but he was useful to the space programme. Simillarly the heads of unit 731 were useful for Americas chemical and biological weapons programme and so they were employed. If there was a military use for a gas chamber or mengeles experiments who knows what would have happened.
