Battle for Nanking
- Thread starter Thorlifter
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- Thread starter
- #22
Thorlifter
Captain
Strange how we can discuss Nazi activity against the Jews and there are many people from Germany on this site and it's not an issue. I bring up one battle that I don't know much about and want to learn and now we are having to tiptoe around "feelings".
I thought we could discuss this, but this whole thread is going in a direction I didn't anticipate. I didn't mean to ruffle feathers so I will go find the "Best Night Fighter" or "The Person Below Me" thread and post there.
Apologize to all.....
I thought we could discuss this, but this whole thread is going in a direction I didn't anticipate. I didn't mean to ruffle feathers so I will go find the "Best Night Fighter" or "The Person Below Me" thread and post there.
Apologize to all.....
renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
This thread has the potential of becoming very inflamed. Having said that, I have enjoyed the very well done posts of our Japanese friend and would welcome his participation in this thread, especially with accurate accounts that he can contribute based on his different perspective. I have always had deep feelings of dismay about the atrocities committed by the Japanese in WW2, especially in POW camps. But to try to gain perspective about it, an American has only to be aware of the atrocities committed by Americans of both sides in POW camps during the War Between the States. There are almost always two sides to every point of view.
tail end charlie
Senior Airman
- 615
- Aug 24, 2010
Mike this is my opinion (Shinpachi is more than welcome to correct me if I am wrong)
There are many things I could say which would run into a book but here goes.
This forum is in the English language and English and its users are direct, most English speaking countries have a confrontational style of government and an adversarial system of justice. Japanese language and culture is based on consensus and not causing offense and being part of a group. Shinpachi is therefore caught between expressing his opinion (which wont necessarily be welcomed by some) and maintaining the harmony of the group.
In Europe few people can trace their history back further than a few hundred years unless they are from an aristocratic family. It is normal in parts of Japan for the family history to be held covering well over a thousand years many can trace their family back longer than the Queen of England. From this there is a respect for elders, criticising the conduct of the war is criticising your elders which is against Japanese custom.
The Emperor had and has a special place in Japanese society, I never met anyone who thought Hirohito was a god when I first went to Japan whether they actually did in WWII I dont know. From a British point of view I understand the Japanese. During WWII The King was head of state along with his wife the Queen. All service men fought for king and country, that is whatever servicemen did was in the name of the king, desipite all the feeling about Dresden I have never heard anyone hold the king responsible or, in post war years take the Queen Mother to task, imagine the British reaction if they did and the Queen Mother was fully aware of what bomber command was doing.
Japanese may not teach somethings we may wish they did but British schools hardly teach anything either, I was never taught about the Slave trade, Opium wars, attrocities in India Africa Ireland or anywhere else except the camps in the Boer war. Are Americans taught about the treatment of the native indians and if they are why dont they do something, I remember a cowboy film every weekend showing the indian savages being massacred, they still live on reservations I believe.
Every country has its nutters and extremists in my lifetime in the USA there has been a president assasinated, a presidential candidate assasinated and another president almost assasinated. Doctors are occasionaly killed and frequently threatened by the pro life movement in the USA for performing abortions which is legal. In the UK we have had people killed by animal rights activists which shows we can still teach the world something even if it is stupidity. I wont even go near the blatant hypocrisy on both sides of the Atlantic concerning Northern Ireland, I was brought up being taught I lived in a democratic country, it was a shock to me, and the soldiers involved that some Catholics didnt have a vote in N Ireland. There were few things good to come out of 9-11 but one was the Police in New York and Boston were prevented from sending money to N.Ireland to kill policemen there. Does anyone routinely question British or American society?
I have never met any Japanese who tried to excuse or deny Nanking although I am sure there are some. I have met many rampant Nazis in Germany and a few holocaust denyers. When it comes to anti semitism the French take some beating. If you take a group of people and fill their heads full of propaganda while demonising your enemies then attrocities occur. The Americans invented the word Vietcong because the real name didnt sound nasty enough and both British and Americans have commited attrocities in Iraq a country we both propped up for years to suit our ends against Iran.
Many times I have been put on the spot about international politics purely because I was the only English guy in the Bar. When Thatcher and Mitterand clashed I was in France, every french guy demanded to know what I thought never thinking that I may not have voted for her, as an expat I am expected to answer for the current British prime minister when all I actually want is a beer. Germans used to ask me if I was worried about mad cow disease never thinking that I was eating German Beef same as they were. Ive even had a group of Israelis bending my ear about the Crusades not knowing about the "Harrying of the North". Just because Shinpachi is Japanese doesnt mean he wants to answer for Japans history everytime some other poster feels like throwing a question at him. In any case it is a fundamental part of the far east that there are two truths, one you inwardly feel and the other that you outwardly express. It takes a long time to become a friend of Japanese (even for Japanese) and you dont become friends by asking confrontational questions in public.
From the few conversations I had, the Japanese see the second world war as inevitable, America and Britain wanted to expand their interests in the Pacific and Japan was a rival. America emposed an oil embargo and the Japanese reacted as they had to because they had no reserves themselves. To the Japanese I spoke to the idea that Pearl Harbour was a surprise is risible, it was viewed in the same way as Iran closing the Persian Gulf would be today.
There is much more to Japan than Nanking and World War II which as I see it Shinpachi is willing to share, given time I am sure he will feel comfortable enough to express HIS opinions when he is sure it wont be a witch hunt, which from what he says it has been up to now.
+1
I can agree with everything except:
1. I would love for this discussion to continue (peaceful of course).
2. You need not apologize to anyone, especially since I think you are correct in everything you said above.
tail end charlie
Senior Airman
- 615
- Aug 24, 2010
I agree Adler but is it normal behaviour to send a private message to German contributors about the holocaust and then post that private message on the forum to continue a private discussion in public.
I havnt seen any post from Shinpachi saying he gave any support to the attrocities committed by Japanese wheras I have seen pro nazi posts on here (rightfully the guy was banned). If anyone wishes to know anyones PRIVATE opinion then they should conduct that conversation in PRIVATE, not post the PRIVATE question in PUBLIC when the answer doesnt satisfy.
sorry if I am out of order but I see that as bad manners at the least in any culture. I sense from Shinpachis posts he feels as if he is isolated (I have seen other posts of people having a go) if we want to know what he really feels we should give him time to feel he is among friends.
tail end charlie
Senior Airman
- 615
- Aug 24, 2010
Thorlifter you send a private message to anyone on any forum then post the message on the forum and ask for a reply then check out the result, Shinpachi was remarkably restrained in the circumstances most people would respond in Anglo Saxon. I personally am not interested in any private message from anyone as a result....on this forum private isnt private.
I would be outraged if you did that to me but you think it is normal behaviour...is it normal for you? do you normally post your private messages or have you done it because shinpachi is Japanese. Compared to Nanking and Hiroshima it isnt a big issue so lets have an answer.
tail end charlie
Senior Airman
- 615
- Aug 24, 2010
Oh, so YOU'RE the one!
Viking
when you work in another country you become the focus of everyones grievance I have even been asked to explain Nelsons "inhuman" behaviour in Italy (you gotta read some books to find what on earth they are on about but they have a valid case)....I dont see why Shinpachi should be harrangued on a forum and this isnt an isolated case.
And By the way next time biker babe is on line I am going to ask her when she is going to rebuild that church her folks wrecked just up the road from me it may have been 1400years ago but like the elephant we dont forget like we dont forget the vikings VIKINGBERSEKER
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- Thread starter
- #29
Thorlifter
Captain
I posted the message due to his request to start a thread on this subject so all could see that I asked about the subject in the most respectful way I could (so I thought). I also made it very clear that I wished no disrespect to anyone and simply wished to learn about a subject I didn't know about
And now you question if I did it just because he is Japanese. Apparently you didn't read or couldn't comprehend all my other messages and make a freaking low life comment like that. I answered your question out of respect to the members of this board where I have been a member for over 6 years. But the last thing I have to do is explain myself to you. As far as you know, I'm Japanese too!
If you wish to contribute to this thread constructively, please do so. If you wish to question peoples motives after they have explained them several times, then take it up with the Mods.
Now, I would love to continue the discussion of the thread but I will not continue in his manner. If you don't like my explanation, tough sh!t.
Damn, try to learn something and my character comes into question. Whatever!
tail end charlie
Senior Airman
- 615
- Aug 24, 2010
As I read Shinpachis private meassage clearly states the following....
quote
I would like to launch new thread to answer if you, and Mods, may admit as I always want my opinion to be known widely.
unquote
That is he would like to start a thread not someone else like YOU.
Show me in the 6 years of posting where you have posted on a forum message you sent in private. I havnt been posting on this forum very long but i recognise what is incorrect behaviour on a forum I have been on the internet since it started...show me where you have ever done that before, and if you didnt read my admittedly overly verbose post, the Japanese are different you will get nothing but contempt proceeding they way you are.
In Japanese and British (I ask Americans to speak for America)culture a private conversation is private, personally I dont care how long you have been posting here, if you think long time attendance allows you to ignore normal behaviour and post a private message then there is nothing at all to say. Have you ever done that to a German poster?
I have discussed Nanjing with Japanese in Japan and Europe and with Chinese in China it is a very very emotive issue (there are issues going back to when Europe was under ice) and if you want to get an opinion you dont do it the way you started this thread. I maintain you have never pulled a stunt like that with any western poster even a nazi appologist, prove you have and the moderators can bar me, no problem.
There is one important difference between the Japanese and British however, I will express myself in Anglo Saxon in private or in public if someone pulls a stunt like that on me. How many expletives would you like. You show me where you have ever done a stunt like that and I am outta here if you dont it is for you to explain why Shinpachi is the first.
Obviously Australians are exempt from any discussion about behaviour as they are all criminals anyway
BTW well done in the Dehli games bring on the ashes
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Dear Thorlifter.
I could not understand well why I was asked to explain you about the China-Japan relation in details when there are no sufficient data writen in English yet but now I understand you have the right to know.
Japanese junior and senior hi-schools are teaching the Nanjing incident at history class though it may look simple for you. Here is a copy of the text.
It says -
物資の略奪、放火、虐殺などの行為もしばしば発生した。
とくに南京占領にさいしては、捕虜・武器を捨てた兵士、老人、女性、子どもまでふくめた民衆を無差別に殺害した。戦死した兵士もあわせたこの時の死者の数は、多数にのぼると推定されている。諸外国は、この南京大虐殺事件を強く非難したが、当時の日本人のほとんどはこの事実さえ知らなかった。
（脚注）この時の死者の数については、数万人、十数万人、三十万人以上などと推定されている。（清水書院）
(Translation)
The acts such as the plunder of supplies, arson, the slaughter often occurred, too. Soldiers killed not only POWs, unarmed soldiers but old people, women, children indiscriminately for occupation of Nanjing. The number of victims, including KIA soldiers is estimated enormous. Many foreign countries strongly criticized this Nanjing Massacre case, but the then almost Japanese did not know even this fact.
（Note）About the number of killed people of this time, it is estimated more than tens of thousands, a hundred and several thousands or three hundred thousand. （Publisher: Shimizu Shoin）
In addition,
Japan-China Joint History Research Committee was launched for the mutual better understanding between the two nations in December 2006.
The First Meeting of The Japan-China Joint History Research Committee (Summary) December 2006
We regretly have no more official reports in English but Japanese or Chinese only.
Let me attach these 4 pdf files for your future references.
Following sentences quoted from English news early this year introduce the latest summary.
The Final Report of the Japan-China Joint History Research Committee
The Japan-China Joint History Research Committee, which comprises scholars from Japan and China, published its final report on their three-year study on 31 January 2010. Led by University of Tokyo Professor Shinichi Kitaoka and Director of the Institute of Modern History of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences Bu Ping, the panel discussed Sino-Japanese history through the ancient, medieval and modern eras. The final 549-page report contains a series of essays on the same subjects by both Japanese and Chinese scholars due to the differences in perceptions of various historical issues.....
......................................................................................................
(iv) The number of casualties in the Nanjing Massacre. The Japanese side notes that the Chinese claim that there were more than 300,000 casualties was based on the 1947 Nanjing War Crimes Tribunal, but other studies estimate the number of casualties range from 20,000 to up to 300,000. The Japanese side did however acknowledge the responsibility of the Imperial Army for the "mass killings" of prisoners of war, civilians, stragglers, and others, along with frequent rapes, lootings and arson.
For more details, please refer to the following site.
The Sino-Japanese History Issue ?? | Twisting Flowers
Others(General)
Japan-China Relations
MOFA: Japan-China Relations
The extremist you mention belongs to the minority in Japan.
They have no power to change the society.
Thanks Thor and guys.
I could not understand well why I was asked to explain you about the China-Japan relation in details when there are no sufficient data writen in English yet but now I understand you have the right to know.
Japanese junior and senior hi-schools are teaching the Nanjing incident at history class though it may look simple for you. Here is a copy of the text.
It says -
物資の略奪、放火、虐殺などの行為もしばしば発生した。
とくに南京占領にさいしては、捕虜・武器を捨てた兵士、老人、女性、子どもまでふくめた民衆を無差別に殺害した。戦死した兵士もあわせたこの時の死者の数は、多数にのぼると推定されている。諸外国は、この南京大虐殺事件を強く非難したが、当時の日本人のほとんどはこの事実さえ知らなかった。
（脚注）この時の死者の数については、数万人、十数万人、三十万人以上などと推定されている。（清水書院）
(Translation)
The acts such as the plunder of supplies, arson, the slaughter often occurred, too. Soldiers killed not only POWs, unarmed soldiers but old people, women, children indiscriminately for occupation of Nanjing. The number of victims, including KIA soldiers is estimated enormous. Many foreign countries strongly criticized this Nanjing Massacre case, but the then almost Japanese did not know even this fact.
（Note）About the number of killed people of this time, it is estimated more than tens of thousands, a hundred and several thousands or three hundred thousand. （Publisher: Shimizu Shoin）
In addition,
Japan-China Joint History Research Committee was launched for the mutual better understanding between the two nations in December 2006.
The First Meeting of The Japan-China Joint History Research Committee (Summary) December 2006
We regretly have no more official reports in English but Japanese or Chinese only.
Let me attach these 4 pdf files for your future references.
Following sentences quoted from English news early this year introduce the latest summary.
The Final Report of the Japan-China Joint History Research Committee
The Japan-China Joint History Research Committee, which comprises scholars from Japan and China, published its final report on their three-year study on 31 January 2010. Led by University of Tokyo Professor Shinichi Kitaoka and Director of the Institute of Modern History of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences Bu Ping, the panel discussed Sino-Japanese history through the ancient, medieval and modern eras. The final 549-page report contains a series of essays on the same subjects by both Japanese and Chinese scholars due to the differences in perceptions of various historical issues.....
......................................................................................................
(iv) The number of casualties in the Nanjing Massacre. The Japanese side notes that the Chinese claim that there were more than 300,000 casualties was based on the 1947 Nanjing War Crimes Tribunal, but other studies estimate the number of casualties range from 20,000 to up to 300,000. The Japanese side did however acknowledge the responsibility of the Imperial Army for the "mass killings" of prisoners of war, civilians, stragglers, and others, along with frequent rapes, lootings and arson.
For more details, please refer to the following site.
The Sino-Japanese History Issue ?? | Twisting Flowers
Others(General)
Japan-China Relations
MOFA: Japan-China Relations
The extremist you mention belongs to the minority in Japan.
They have no power to change the society.
Thanks Thor and guys.
Attachments
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evangilder
"Shooter"
Thank you for that, Shinpachi-san!
Actually, while the text about Nanjing is brief in it's description, it is not much different than some of the things we are taught in the US about things that we did to the native Americans and others. As is often the case with schools, you get a basic overview of things that would require further reading to get a better understanding of.
It is good to see that people of both Japan and China are reaching out to each other to mend old wounds and enhance understanding of each other.
Actually, while the text about Nanjing is brief in it's description, it is not much different than some of the things we are taught in the US about things that we did to the native Americans and others. As is often the case with schools, you get a basic overview of things that would require further reading to get a better understanding of.
It is good to see that people of both Japan and China are reaching out to each other to mend old wounds and enhance understanding of each other.
Japanese education about the WWII period is a real issue. OTOH it seems to often be exaggerated how much 'white washing' occurs in Japanese textbooks and classrooms. Also, Japanese atrocities in China are not a 'cut and dried' historical issue in the same way the Holocaust is. Japan fought a war of choice in China in the 1930's. As in most countries in human history up to that time, many people in China lived on the edge of life or death even in peacetime. The mere disruption of war (shortage of food, spread of disease, etc) was enough to push massive numbers over the line unless the invader went out of his way to prevent it, and the Japanese did not. This factor alone caused millions of Chinese deaths over the whole war, but again if you take the long view of history, it was usually the case. It's even true today in a place like Congo, where it's estimated 3mil have died in the multisided off and on war there since the 1990's, but again mostly to starvation and disease caused by war, not directly at the hands of combatants. Make no mistake, all such deaths are the responsiblity of whoever starts a war in such a situation, the point simply being it was not uncommon through history, and not really comparable to an attempt to eliminate a whole people by genocide.
But besides that massive number of deaths in China caused by indirect effects of war, the Japanese also committed deliberate killings of civilians, and there was hardly a concept of enemy POW's when it came to Chinese soldiers, either. But the numbers in that case are again not so cut and dried. So here's where Nanking is still an especially divisive issue between China and Japan. The big emotional picuture for most Chinese is massive overall Chinese suffering in the whole war, started by Japan. OTOH the specific historical technical fact is that likely far fewer than 2-300k people were actually murdered by the Japanese in the Rape of Nanking, and the bulk of them were probably Chinese soldiers attempting to make off in civilian clothing (though again, because they knew they wouldn't be treated as POW's if they remained in uniform). Again that's not at all like saying far less than 6mil Jews were killed by Hitler; 6mil, or that ballpark, is pretty well documented, and saying it was much less is Holocaust denial. The number killed at Nanking is *far* less certain but even mentioning in a textbook that some say it's 300k is being more than fair, that's almost surely too high. What's in a number? it was a terrible wrong by any estimation, but many people *are* hung up about the specific number, and do criticize anyone, and especially any Japanese, for questioning the number, though the number is questionable.
Iris Chang's "The Rape of Nanking" was mentioned earlier; it's not a reliable book as documentary history.
Joe
But besides that massive number of deaths in China caused by indirect effects of war, the Japanese also committed deliberate killings of civilians, and there was hardly a concept of enemy POW's when it came to Chinese soldiers, either. But the numbers in that case are again not so cut and dried. So here's where Nanking is still an especially divisive issue between China and Japan. The big emotional picuture for most Chinese is massive overall Chinese suffering in the whole war, started by Japan. OTOH the specific historical technical fact is that likely far fewer than 2-300k people were actually murdered by the Japanese in the Rape of Nanking, and the bulk of them were probably Chinese soldiers attempting to make off in civilian clothing (though again, because they knew they wouldn't be treated as POW's if they remained in uniform). Again that's not at all like saying far less than 6mil Jews were killed by Hitler; 6mil, or that ballpark, is pretty well documented, and saying it was much less is Holocaust denial. The number killed at Nanking is *far* less certain but even mentioning in a textbook that some say it's 300k is being more than fair, that's almost surely too high. What's in a number? it was a terrible wrong by any estimation, but many people *are* hung up about the specific number, and do criticize anyone, and especially any Japanese, for questioning the number, though the number is questionable.
Iris Chang's "The Rape of Nanking" was mentioned earlier; it's not a reliable book as documentary history.
Joe
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parsifal
Colonel
I dont wish to offend anyone, so posting comments about sensitive issues about raw subjects must be done with some sensitivity. We break no rules if we state facts, or at least well based opinions, and dont turn on each other.
But having said that, I will not resile from the truth, even if that means I get into trouble, or it upsets one or more of our members. I am not blaming those members, or any individual, but i will hold a country, or an organization to account without fear of the consequences.
For me there is no ambiguity. The Japanese army, and its support elements, as an organization carried out repeated violations of human rights, and attrocities in China, based on nothing more than race. There is evidence of Japanese soldiers using pregnant women for bayonet practice, for example, systematic murder, rape and torture of civilians and the scantiest attention to the welfare of people such as POWs that were under their care. I can forgive all of that. I have forgiven all of that, but I will never forget either, and neither should the descendants of Japan be allowed to forget. It is something they have to deal with , in exactly the same way as the German second and third generations have to accept an know about their national war guilt. They arent responsible, but their country was. If we forget this guilt, we betray the millions who died trying to stop the madness all those years ago.
But having said that, I will not resile from the truth, even if that means I get into trouble, or it upsets one or more of our members. I am not blaming those members, or any individual, but i will hold a country, or an organization to account without fear of the consequences.
For me there is no ambiguity. The Japanese army, and its support elements, as an organization carried out repeated violations of human rights, and attrocities in China, based on nothing more than race. There is evidence of Japanese soldiers using pregnant women for bayonet practice, for example, systematic murder, rape and torture of civilians and the scantiest attention to the welfare of people such as POWs that were under their care. I can forgive all of that. I have forgiven all of that, but I will never forget either, and neither should the descendants of Japan be allowed to forget. It is something they have to deal with , in exactly the same way as the German second and third generations have to accept an know about their national war guilt. They arent responsible, but their country was. If we forget this guilt, we betray the millions who died trying to stop the madness all those years ago.
1. I don't think he did anything wrong. He posted the message to show that he meant no disrespect or harm. I believe he posted it so that he could show that he wanted to discuss this. I also believe that the message from Shinpachi was misunderstood and that might also be why the email was posted. This misunderstanding comes from the fact that it sounded like Shinpachi agreed to a thread but then was hurt by it when the thread was started. He was only showing that he thought Shinpachi agreed to the thread.
2. Shinpachi should not feel isolated. No one is attacking him. What happened during WW2 is history and that is something we discuss in this forum.
3. We openly discuss what happened in Europe by the Germans, why should the Japanese be exempt from that? Were they on vacation or something?
4. No one here including Thorlifter is attacking Shinpachi or any other Japanese. The innocent Japanese and Germans can not be blamed for what happened over 60 years ago. Nor can the Japanese and Germans that were born after the war.
5. This thread should just be discussed, but in a peaceful manner.
6. Shinpachi, please do not feel attacked. I do not feel that any member of this forum with a right mind would do so. If someone did, we moderators will handle it accordingly and the said member will be removed from this forum.
7. Having said that, Tail End Charlie let us moderators do our job. Why don't you stay in your lane. I mean no disrespect to you either, but we do not need any more Chiefs around here or in this thread. If you wish to moderate a thread or forum, please start a forum of your own. If you have issues with a thread or post, message a moderator from now on and let us handle it.]
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Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
and lets stay on topic.
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
Well said.
renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
Michael, your points are very well taken. People today should be made aware of inappropriate,(to say the least,) behavior of citizens, military or civilian, of our respective countries. The old saying, "Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it," (or something like that) is very true. Studying misbehavior in the past also gives one a sense of perspective about the present. Holding responsible, people today though, for acts of their ancestors is useless and does more harm than good.
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
A-fricken-men!
