Battle of Britain RAF and LW order of battle

[Milosh]

On Aug 13 1940 had 189 serviceable Bf110s out of 244 on hand. Luft5 had 34 Bf110s on hand with 32 serviceable.

Luft 2 and 3 had 206 Bf110s on hand with 112 serviceable on Sept 7 1940.

There was no Bf110s in Luft 5 on Sept 7 1940.

For the invasion of Norway, the LW had 64 Bf110s on hand. When the battle of France began the LW had 372 a/c in the Zerstörergruppen with 247 serviceable. Of this number, 53 were still in Norway.

Sept 7 1940

Twin-Engined Fighters (Night-Fighters Excluded)
Stab/ZG 2 Toussous-le-Noble 1 -
I/ZG 2 Amiens, Caen 20 10
II/ZG 2 Guyancourt/Caudran 28 10
Stab/ZG 26 ? 3 3
I/ZG 26 Abbeville, St. Omer 33 14
II/ZG 26 Crècy 25 17
III/ZG 26 Barly, Arques 25 17
V (Z.)/LG 1 Ligescourt, Alencon 23 19
Stab/ZG 76 ? Bf 110 2 2
II/ZG 76 Le Mans, Abbeville 27 12
III/ZG 76 Laval 19 8

 

[davebender]

Ludwig von Eimannsberger wrote a history of V/LGI that includes the complete operational record for April to October 1940. Perhaps this will provide insight as to just how busy Me-110 Gruppe were before and during the Battle of Britain.

May 1940 Combat Missions.
Does not include transfers and training missions.
5.
10.
10. Two missions in one day. Both to Verdun.
11. Another mission to Verdun. 1 Me-110 lost.
12.
12. Two more missions to Verdun in one day. 3 Me-110s lost.
13.
13.
13. Three missions to Verdun in one day.
14.
14.
14. Three missions to Verdun in one day.
15.
15. Two missions to Sedan in one day.
16.
16.
16. Three missions to Reims in one day. 3 personnel casualties but no aircraft lost.
17. Mission to Reims. 3 Me-110s lost.
18. Mission to Reims.
18. Mission to Compiegne.
19.
20.
21. Amiens. 1 Me-110 lost.
23.
24.
25.
25.
25. Three missions in one day.
26.
26. Two missions in one day.
27.
27. Two missions over Dunkirk in one day.
28.
29.

June and July 1940 were just as busy as May 1940. Two more Me-110s were lost during July 1940 over the Isle of Wight.

The Gruppe lost 9 Me-110s over England during August 1940.

The Gruppe lost 13 Me-110s over England during September 1940.

During October 1940 the Gruppe was reconstituted as 1/NJG3.

 

[Freebird]

In addition this link, German Order of Battle - Statistics as of Quarter Years, 1938-45

Excellent link, thanks!
Is there a similar tabulation for RAF numbers?

Great idea Mustang!

Here is what John Ellis in "The WWII Data Book" lists.....


S/E aircraft

6 July....................RAF - 644 LW - 750
20 July..................RAF - 658 LW - 656
10 August..............RAF - 749 LW - 805
7 September..........RAF - 746 LW - 623
28 September........RAF - 732 LW - 276.

Njaco, is the 276 a typo? Maybe 672? or 726?

And are the RAF numbers the total S/E aircraft or only those operational?

 

[Poor Old Spike]

As a matter of interest these are the loss figures as given at the end of the 1969 film "The Battle of Britain"

Galland's verdict in an interview- "The Battle of Britain...that was a tough fight"
Interview with World War II Luftwaffe General and Ace Pilot Adolf Galland



1940: Grim-faced Me109 pilot Gustav "Micky" Sprick lands in France and describes his combat with RAF fighters in the Battle of Britain-

 

[stona]

Sprick,another one killed when the wing(s) came of his Bf 109 F....... or.....

Sprick may have been a victim of P/O Wladislaw Drecki who claimed two Bf 109s he shot at crashed to the ground from low level,though he gives his position in his report as having been slightly out to sea. Typically confusing as you'd expect them to have crashed into the sea. Sgt Belc (like Drecki of 303 squadron) also made a claim at the right time and place for a Bf 109 which was pursuing Drecki.

Malan also made a claim in the right place and time.

It just goes to show how difficult it is to establish who shot down what.Several RAF pilots either shot at or witnessed Sprick's crash and it is possible several claimed him.

Caldwell concludes,with others,that Sprick was the victim of a wing failiure as he pulled out of a split S evasive manoeuvre.

You can have this fun with many,many claims. Try and establish who shot down Franz von Werra if you have an afternoon to waste


Cheers
SteveS

 

[Njaco]

Excellent link, thanks!
Is there a similar tabulation for RAF numbers?



Njaco, is the 276 a typo? Maybe 672? or 726?

And are the RAF numbers the total S/E aircraft or only those operational?

All numbers are serviceable S/E a/c available for both sides. On the part of the LW, these numbers are for Luftflotte 2 and 3 only. And that number is correct. For the RAF it does not include those a/c in storage.

 

[Vincenzo]

Njaco i don't think 276 is correct, the 28th september situation is available also on ww2.dk (the Milosh link).

 

[Njaco]

I don't know what to say. Page 232 "The WWII Data Book" by John Ellis.

.

 

[Vincenzo]

Yes i think the missprint is in the book

 

[GregP]

Right, the book is wrong because we don't like the numbers?

This sounds like research without reference, there COULD be a misprint. It will take some digging to be sure.

 

[Vincenzo]

GregP you don't followed all the discussion i've give the reference lw orbat for 28 september in ww.dk, you can did the sum of unit in the western for find a number that is not 276

 

[Freebird]

Right, the book is wrong because we don't like the numbers?

This sounds like research without reference, there COULD be a misprint. It will take some digging to be sure.

Or could it be perhaps that a large number of S/E aircraft were withdrawn near the end of September as it became clear that the BoB landings would not occur?

 

[Milosh]

Or could it be perhaps that a large number of S/E aircraft were withdrawn near the end of September as it became clear that the BoB landings would not occur?

If that is so then why did the number of dive bombers almost double?

 

[Milosh]

GregP you don't followed all the discussion i've give the reference lw orbat for 28 september in ww.dk, you can did the sum of unit in the western for find a number that is not 276

Single engine fighters - 28.09.40

gives a total of 920 s/e fighters

 

[Freebird]

Single engine fighters - 28.09.40

gives a total of 920 s/e fighters

But only 712 available...

 

[Glider]

But only 712 available...

and only 676 pilots. It doesn't matter how many aircraft you have, if you only have X no of pilots then in reality you only have X no of combat aircraft to use

 

[stona]

and only 676 pilots. It doesn't matter how many aircraft you have, if you only have X no of pilots then in reality you only have X no of combat aircraft to use

Exactly,and on September 14th 1940 the Luftwaffe's Bf 109 Staffeln possessed only 67% operational ready crews against authorised aircraft.

The losses following Adlertag the previous month were never made good.The Luftwaffe lost 18.5% of all combat aircraft available at the beginning of August in that month (774 to all causes) with a corresponding loss of crews.
That's why it was in a sorry state by September,that's why the RAF won the Battle of Britain(whatever spin some revisionists might try to apply) and that's why the Luftwaffe started bombing London,by night.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Glider]

Its an interesting point that the RAF shortage of trained aircrews is well known and often discussed but the Luftwaffe were in no better and in some ways a much worse situation.

On the 29 June 1940 they had 906 Me109 pilots ready for action and on 28 September they had 676, a serious shortfall of about 25%.

 

[GregP]

I dare say, Vincenzo, that many diferent numbers can be supported by simply using different references. Unless you do the research yourself and come up with a number that agrees with someone else's research independently, then you have just another number and another opinion supported by someone else's book or research. Everybody has an opinion.

What we haven't established in the real numbers. But it has been interesting.

Disagreeing with a book should mean you have independent research that says different, with attendant sources that you can somehow find more believable than the numbers you disagree with, and can explain why you believe that, on some legitimate basis not based on simple disagreement. Otherwise it's just another opinion, as valid or invalid as anyone else's.

I think we all know the outcome. What we disagree on are the numbers and some small amount of the reasons for a few losses. Maybe the real reports are just lost and we'll never know, but the outcome is pretty well set since it really happened and is long over. The numbers, plus or minus a few percent are also pretty well known, give or take a bit.

 

[Tante Ju]

and only 676 pilots. It doesn't matter how many aircraft you have, if you only have X no of pilots then in reality you only have X no of combat aircraft to use

Single engine fighters - 28.09.40

It says 917 pilots for 920 aircraft. Yeah, they were like, 3 pilots short.