Battle of Britain RAF and LW order of battle

[stona]

According to Stephen Bungay (via Mason I think) Fighter Command had,on 1st July 1940,640 serviceable aircraft and 1103 aircrew available. Of these 338 were Hurricanes and 200 Spitfires.
The rest,102 Defiants,Blenheims and their crews ,remember the Blenheim had a crew of three and the Defiant two to be deducted from the overall total,are frankly irrelevant to the BoB. Why Dowding did not retrain these men in the face of pilot shortages for single engined/single seat fighters that developed in early September we will never know.

On 1st September 1940 the totals are 648 serviceable aircraft and 1142 aircrew. Of which 351 were Hurricanes (net gain of 13) and 207 Spitfires (net gain of 7). This reflects the fact that British aircraft production always kept pace with losses.

In the eighteen weeks between July and the beginning of November 1940 there were only three weeks when there was a net loss of Hurricanes and only four weeks when there was a net loss of Spitfires.

Another reason why we won.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Njaco]

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[stona]

And if you boil that rather confusing chart down you'll find exactly what I posted above.There is just such a table in one of the well known BoB books which I will dig out. Fighter Command was never short of aircraft.
Cheers
Steve

Like this:

Category 1 losses,which could easily be repaired,often at the aerodrome,are not included. Category 2 is a badly damaged aircraft which might be repaired or broken for parts. Category 3 is a total loss,destroyed or missing.

Another often overlooked factor is the advantage of fighting over home territory.
In August 1940 the RAF lost 139 pilots/aircrew killed,110 wounded but only 7 missing. Contrast this with the Luftwaffe for the same month.463 killed,201 wounded but a huge 804 missing.
Nearly as many airmen(113) were killed flying one Luftwaffe type,He 111,as were killed in the RAF flying all types. Not surprising given that almost all RAF losses were in single seat fighters.

 

[Juha]

A good source of info on the losses during the BoB, but there is a typo right on the first line, 10 July, in the table there stand for LW a/c losses 41, should be 14.
BBC News - Battle of Britain: The cost, you will see the table by downloading it

Juha

 

[GregP]

Juha, thanks for the link. It's the data I've been looking for!

I appreciate it.

 

[Milosh]

Greg do you realize the massive size of Herr Holm`s data. This took a massive amount of time and effort on his part and probably started before computers were around.

For just fighter units, there is over 90 units listed. The Jagdgeschwader Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen (ie. the comings and goings) for each Gruppe in a JG is listed on a monthly bases for approximately 30 months. That could be 100 files he had to find and pay for in the Bund Archives for each Gruppe.

This is not someone with a questionable agenda that you hinted about. This data, which all can view online (thank you very much Herr Holm), was done with passion and love and as accurate as he can make it.

 

[GregP]

Hi Milosh,

I realize the size and do NOT accuse Herr Holm of anything at all except that I cannot validate his data.

I am using it now since it is available, but am keeping an open mind since I have no idea if he is posting data as seen immediately after WWII or is what I call a "revisionist" who thinks that he is better qualified to cut the data than the people who fought the war. Without seeing the original data, I cannot say if his online data are valid or not, but I am willling to use them until proven one way or the other since I have been unable to locate the data otherwise.

I follow the scientific method. That is, state a hypothesis and attempt to prove it false. If you can't, the hypothesis might be right. It still might be wrong but, if you can't prove it, the so-called hypotyhesis might be valid unless and until proven wrong.

I'll say Herr Holm is right an will attempt to prove otherwise by wheatver means I can. If I can't, perhaps his data are correct, or as close as we'll get. If anyone out there reads German, maybe they could look at the original data and chime in here. Otherwise, I'll use it until and unless I can prove it wrong, which may never happen. Sorry, I've been burned enough times to be shy of accepting internet data at face value and thinking it is correct ... but I sure HOPE it is.

No insult to Herr Holm intened or implied ... just shy of internet "facts." At least his data aren't on Wiki! That is in his favor right away.

 

[stona]

I realize the size and do NOT accuse Herr Holm of anything at all except that I cannot validate his data.

You can validate his data,but you'll have to pay for the priveledge. He gives a list of sources on his website,mostly surviving contemoporary german documents held at the Bundesarchiv-Militararchiv in Freiburg,but also material from USAF Historical Research Agency, Maxwell AFB, Alabama.

As Milosh says Holm has created a valuable source which we can all access free of charge.

Cheers

Steve

 

[GregP]

Is Heer Holm's data WWI data or post-war revised data? That's my question.

If basically WWII data, I will accept. If revised, I'll decide when I see the diferences.

 

[stona]

Is Heer Holm's data WWI data or post-war revised data? That's my question.

If basically WWII data, I will accept. If revised, I'll decide when I see the diferences.

I should have clarified "contemporary". The German documents which form lists he published are surviving wartime documents. It's why there are periods,sometimes substantial,which are missing.

Sorry for any confusion.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Deleted member 68059]

I don't know what to say. Page 232 "The WWII Data Book" by John Ellis.

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View attachment 227930

The figure for SEF on 28th Sep 1940 is definetly totally wrong, German derived records I have state its not 276, but 1024 servicable S.E.F. of a unit strength on paper of 1580. (my figures are from 30th Sept 1940).

 

[Vincenzo]

the 28th september is available on ww2.dk, this is available for gruppen, the total for SEF in the full luftwaffe are
aircraft establish: 1132 on strength 920, ready 712
pilots establish 1132, present 917, ready 676,
in the page of the gruppen someone can check what gruppen are in the BoB area

 

[Deleted member 68059]

the 28th september is available on ww2.dk, this is available for gruppen, the total for SEF in the full luftwaffe are
aircraft establish: 1132 on strength 920, ready 712
pilots establish 1132, present 917, ready 676,
in the page of the gruppen someone can check what gruppen are in the BoB area

Yes those match my documents, I actually found the data from the 28th Sept as well.

 

[Milosh]

Another source for numbers, Luftwaffe Orders of Battle 1945

 

[Glider]

Yes those match my documents, I actually found the data from the 28th Sept as well.

View attachment 670467

There are some very scary numbers in this paper.

Day fighters Establishment Aircrew 1132 + 12, operational aircrew 688 + 10, 61%
T E Fighter Establishment Aircrew 272 + 148, Operational aircrew 126 + 73, 47%
Bomber Establishment Crews 1638, Operational Crews 1074, 47% 65%
Total establishment Aircraft and Crews 5261
Losses Aircraft 3207 Written Off 61% + Damaged over 10% 21%
Losses Crews 2495 Lost 47.5%