Bell P-39

[Jabberwocky]

Of course the P 39 was replaced with the P 63 Kingcobra.

The specs of the Bell P 63 D Kingcobra are quite impressive:

Specification of Bell P-63D Kingcobra:

Powerplant: One Allison V-1710-109 (E22) water-cooled engine rated at 1425 hp for take off. Performance: Maximum speed was 437 mph at 30,000 feet (same as a North American P51 D Mustang), service ceiling was 39,000 feet, and an altitude of 28,000 feet could be reached in 11.2 minutes. Normal range was 950 miles, and maximum ferry range was 2000 miles. Dimensions: wingspan 39 feet 2 inches, length 32 feet 8 inches, height 11 feet 2 inches, and wing area 255 square feet. Weights: 7076 pounds empty, 8740 pounds gross, and 11,100 pounds maximum loaded. Armament: One 37-mm M9E1 cannon in the propeller hub with 48 rounds, a pair of 0.50-inch machine guns in the forward fuselage synchronized to fire through the propeller arc, plus a single 0.50-inch machine gun in each of two underwing gondolas

Performance is impressive, but remember that there was only 1 P-3D produced as a test bed for a bubble canopy and new Allison engine. Performance was as good as a P-51D, a plane that had already been in service for 12 months.

The first major production run was the P-63A (~1800 produced) and the heavier and more powerful, low altitude enhanced P-63C (around 1200 produced). Max speed for the P-63A and C was about 410 mph, not that impressive for a fighter introduced in late 1943/ early 1944. The P-38 amd P-51 both out-ranged it and the P-47 was far more suitable for G/A missions.

 

[book1182]

P-39 mismanaged from the start. Put a super charger on it and you have a winning airplane in a fighter and a GREAT ground attack aircraft.

 

[syscom3]

P-39 mismanaged from the start. Put a super charger on it and you have a winning airplane in a fighter and a GREAT ground attack aircraft.

It was origionally planned to have turbochargers, but the lack of supply for them in 1939 and 1940 meant it was going to be a low altitude aircraft.

 

[book1182]

That is what I mean... It was designed to have a super charger and Bell didn't fight or "bitch" enough to keep it on their plane. The super charger was a very important part of the planes during that time. Look at the P-38 that was sent to England with out super chargers because they were considered top secret. They were passed on to training units.

 

[carpenoctem1689]

The air force was afraid of something so new and revolutionary as the P-39. With the shaft having to drive the propeller from a mid-mounted engine, the two centers of gravity, the car-style doors, the forward tricycle undercarriage, it was something very new. And then you mate a revolutionary aircraft, intended to be an interceptor with the oldsmobile M-9 37mm cannon, something that had a horrible arcing shot, and would in my opinion been much less useful against bombers than even a 20mm cannon with a good muzzle velocity. Foreign orders and red tape kept the turbo or super chargers out of the aircraft, making altitude performance pitifully under par. In the ground attack role however, the aircraft could be effective, but the cannon, later updated to M-10, was still not too powerful when compared to german or soviet cannon. Had the aircraft retained the super or turbo charger, one of the two, and deleted the M-9/M-10, and replaced it with a 20mm cannon, it could have evolved into a much better aircraft than it was. It was so effective with the soviets because its what they had, and they were in no position to complain or whine about anything. They used theyre P-39's in low level, ground attack missions, or covering IL-2 ground attack aircraft, not using theyre 37mm gun against tanks, lacking the muzzle velocity or the proper shells for the mission.

 

[carpenoctem1689]

Good site on the airacobra in the hands of the soviets.

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p39_19.html

 

[CharlesBronson]

Very underrated aircraft.

A picture of the few Cobras actually used by the british. This variant use a Hispano cannon instead the 37 mm M4 gun.

from: P-39 in action/Squadron Signal.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

there was an article in Flypast about 601's P-39s, terrible reliability problems.........

 

[CharlesBronson]

According to "p-39 in action" the P-39s in british service flew a couple of grouns strafing missions over the North of france and no more...that was all the use in western Europe.

Quite weird aircraft, so loved by russians and so hated by british and americans.

 

[Glider]

When the publicity photographs were taken she had already been removed from service due to the problems.

 

[plan_D]

The VVS loved the P-39 because it was a plane perfectly suited to their cause; low level dogfights. The dogfights over Northern Europe were high altitude; where the P-39 could not perform.

 

[fat flyer]

Also for the western allies in the ETO in WWII, there were not many opportunities for the P-39 to be used in a ground attack role.

 

[Jabberwocky]

The VVS rarely used the P-39 in the ground attack role, although it could perform as a fighter bomber (usually with 2 x 100 kg bombs or a single 250 kg bomb)

It was predominantly used as a low altitude escort for Il-2s and Pe-2s, as well as a mid-altitude air superiority fighter.

The 'Soviet tank buster P-39s' are something of a myth. The VVS was never supplied with AP ammunition for the M4 37mm cannon. The Soviet NS-37 37mm cannon, as fitted to Yak-9 and Il-2 variants, was more effective (heavier shell at a higher M/V and higher RoF) than the P-39s M4 at anti armour work.

 

[superpumper]

That's something I wanted to ask. What was the big deal with the 37 mm in the P-39? Like I read in here and other places this 37mm was a poor weapon. Was this the first production a/c to use a weapon of this size? Can someone explan.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

It was a poor weapon - subject to jamming and it didn't function well when being fired with any g loads on it - but one round could take down just about anything. The P-400 had a 20mm which I believe worked a lot better.

 

[Marshall_Stack]

I think the problem with jamming was due to the way the discharged shells were being handled, so this was a Bell design flaw, not the fault of the cannon. Once this was remedied they had no more problems.

One of the problems is that it had a low muzzle velocity. Chuck Yeager said that it was like firing pineapples. Doesn't sound like a positive comment....

 

[CharlesBronson]

The VVS loved the P-39 because it was a plane perfectly suited to their cause; low level dogfights. The dogfights over Northern Europe were high altitude; where the P-39 could not perform.

Yeap, but it must be something more, for example according to "occidental" sources the plane had a bad tendency to make a flat spin in high G maneuvres, the russian aces seems to be insensitive at that fact ( or at list I cant found a reference )

That's something I wanted to ask. What was the big deal with the 37 mm in the P-39? Like I read in here and other places this 37mm was a poor weapon. Was this the first production a/c to use a weapon of this size? Can someone explan

The big differences are in the cartrigde case.

Teorically the AP M4 round (37x145R) could penetrate 25 mm vertical plate at 300 meters. That makes an antitank ?

Maybe yes maybe not:

Just some examples of armor:

Pz II ausf f : 35 mm front 15 mm side.

Pz III ausf H/J 50 mm front 30 mm sides.

Pz IV ausf G 80 mm front, 30 mm sides.

Pz V panther 80/100 mm front, 40 mm sides.

Pz VI B Tiger 1, 100 mm front 80 mm sides.


That demonstrate that it have some posibilities against the thinner armor in the lighter vehicles but the the M-80 round was a very simple one, a solid piece of steel with tracer, no explosive charge or balistic cap. the initial speed was about 609 m/s....compare that with the larger NS-37 round, 900 m/s.

M4 ammo, note the M-80 AP.

Now the longer bottlenecked russian round, 37x195 mm.

The NS-37 was put in some single engines aircraft like the Yak-9, Lagg-3 and Yak-3 that made those double use aircraft (air-to-air and air-to-ground) but because the soviet aicraft were made mostly of wood they have not the strenght and durability of the cobra, also cannot carry as much armor protection and the radio equipmente was inferior, maybe that make the Airacobra so loved in the USSR.

 

[Juha]

Hello CharlesBronson
did the Soviet got the M80 AP ammo? IIRC I read a long time ago that they got only HE ammo for their P-39s. But I cannot remember from what source so I don't know how reliable that info is. Do you have positive info on the delivery of M80 ammo to SU?
Anyway, M4 was such a low velocity weapon that IMHO its forte was its rather powerful HE.

Juha

 

[CharlesBronson]

Sorry but no....I dont have that info, I am just speculating what would be the real armor penetration IF the M80 was used.

Bell P-400.

 

[Juha]

Ok
thanks for sharing the drawings of M4 ammo.

Juha