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I'm not sure if the stacking effect is really applicable in air combat ... how quickly would have two 12.7 mm hits follow each other (and with which precision) to achieve this? A P-47 with guns converging at 300 m averages about 17 bullet strikes per second per square meter in the 75 % radius of its pattern, so the likelihood of two hits on exactly the same spot in a very shrot period is not that great.
It would depend on the mass of the armor and angle of impact, a second would be my guess for a pilot armor plate, hit it twice in the same burst and the second round would have much more chance of going through.HI Clay,
>When a bullet strikes it, a shock wave travels through it, "ringing" it.
Hm, how long does it usually take for the shock wave to dissipate?
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
Something that might have bridged the gap in terms of firepower on American versus other aircraft is the emphasis on gunnery in American fighter training. I've heard a lot of references to the gunnery school in the US during the war, and not to the Germans or Japanese having a similar program.Hii Clay,
>I've seen .50s tear armored land vehicles to shreds both from the ground and strafing including armored locomotives with literally tons of armor.
On the other hand, if you look into US American WW2 aircraft manuals, they specifically indicate arcs of protection against 12.7 mm fire that is provided by the standard aircraft armour plates of the day. This was the same military that considered the 12.7 mm machine gun a good air-to-air weapon.
You might well be right that successive hits had a better penetration ability, but the various WW2 tests quoted in Tony's book "Flying Guns" also show that some hits had almost no pentrative ability due to rounds being disturbed after cutting through the non-armoured light alloy skin of the aircraft, so I don't see much reason to revise my assessment of the 12.7 mm machine gun effectiveness.
>I heard a WWII Thunderbolt ace say when he caught an enemy plane in his convergence range he could disintegrate it, and I've seen the gun cams to prove it. Like it or not, the P-47 had a positive kill ratio with the Fw 190.
Oh, kill ratio is the least of my concerns. The war is already over, you know
With regard to destructiveness: Note that pretty early in this thread I quoted the USAAF pilot Riemensnider with his comment that a correctly ranged burst from the P-51's (only six) guns was "highly destructive", so I don't doubt that the P-47's battery could be even more destructive under the same circumstances.
>I think you are RIGHT about 20mm vs. 12.7mm, but you make it out like the .50 could not possibly damage a plane and I've seen it done.
Actually, I don't think I have ever called the 12.7 mm guns ineffective. I might have called them obsolete, overweight, behind the state-of-the-art or, tongue-in-cheek, even boat's anchors, but I think you would be happy with the appraisal Riemensnider gave them if you'd browse back to quote I mentioned. I believe his statement is quite rational and well-considered, and I've been using his quote countless times over the years.
What gunnery discussions on the internet are often lacking is in fact the rational approach ... much of what you'll read when browsing back is really romanticism as the result of anecdote-based history perception. The WW2 reports quoted in this thread often paint a different picture ... and they were designed to win a war, not to make nice stories for the next generations.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
Clay, the Luftwaffe had gunnery schools just like the USAAF did, no difference.
that was my impression.This is news to me, I would love to hear about the Luftwaffe Gunnery Schools....
Ive read countless accounts of guys doing Staffel gunnery practice, but not an actual "School"...
"Blond Knight of Germany" -about some Hartmann guy
k
DerAdler- there is nothing "wrong" with Erich Hartmann. I consider him one of the best pilots of WW2. I also consider him a fine person and great example of German courage, intelligence, and perserverance. His caring attitude toward fellow pilots displayed on the Eastern Front were so outstanding that he became a natural leader in the post-war German air force.
Note the "" symbol. I was being light-hearted because several posts mention reading pilot biographies. To me, "Blond Knight of Germany" is a Classic (along with Thunderbolt, Samurai, Wing Leader, etc.) and I was very surprised that these forum members are not familiar with this biography.
I apologize for deviating from the original topic of this thread, I was merely referencing that the Luftwaffe did have gunnery schools.
Jack