Twitch
Staff Sergeant
Rear armament was not a required element of success as even Wilde Sau aircraft were mostly single seat fighters. The Mosquito had no rear armament either.
Best Bomber Killing Aircraft......
- Thread starter lesofprimus
- Start date
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Erich
the old Sage
The Mossie in its bombed up versions and night fighter - intruder did not have rear armament to be certain as the crewmen thought they were impervious to rear guard attacks by German nf's. Too bad for many they went down thinking they were safe by Fw 190A's, Bf 109G-6's, Bf 110G-4's and Ju 88G-6's. inclusion of the pitiful he 219 Uhu and their 12 mossie kills; the ultimate was falling before me 262 single seaters, the mossie crews never knew what hit them.
my point was this, even in 1943 the Mossie intruder was being felt in the skies and on the strafing runs at night on German AF. My cousin and his crew piloting a Do 217N-1 nearly bit the bullet when they were taxing out towards RAF heavies in August of 43 when a Canadian 418 Mossie shot the crap out of their Dornier wounding all three crewmen.
A rear gunner was a necessity in the air for defence and lesser extent offense for German nf's. Friend Karl Johanssen shot down 2 Lancs and 1 B-17 of 100th group on a mission where the crew shot down a total of 9 RAF heavies in March of 45. Karl was operating the Naxos and then when his pilot ran out of forward 2cm ammo he unleased the mg 131 in the bottom of the 3 RAF bombers. Their Ju 88G-6 did not have Schrägwaffen
my point was this, even in 1943 the Mossie intruder was being felt in the skies and on the strafing runs at night on German AF. My cousin and his crew piloting a Do 217N-1 nearly bit the bullet when they were taxing out towards RAF heavies in August of 43 when a Canadian 418 Mossie shot the crap out of their Dornier wounding all three crewmen.
A rear gunner was a necessity in the air for defence and lesser extent offense for German nf's. Friend Karl Johanssen shot down 2 Lancs and 1 B-17 of 100th group on a mission where the crew shot down a total of 9 RAF heavies in March of 45. Karl was operating the Naxos and then when his pilot ran out of forward 2cm ammo he unleased the mg 131 in the bottom of the 3 RAF bombers. Their Ju 88G-6 did not have Schrägwaffen
elmilitaro
Senior Airman
nice point Erich.
For nightfighter I have to go with the Ju-88G-6. Also a bomber killer I think you have to throw in the Fw-190's, they packed a good punch an could tangle with any fighter that was escorting the bombers.
saltlakespitfire
Airman
- 21
- Jul 16, 2006
You guys are quite rigt on voting the Me 262. But I would like to point out that compared to the hawker hurricane It was in service for Like 2 minutes
Anyway, during BoB the hurricane was far better at downing Heinkels and droniers than during the allied air offensive over Germany so even though the 262 was a far Better interceptor , It did;nt stand the test of time(could have passed or failed?)
Anyway, during BoB the hurricane was far better at downing Heinkels and droniers than during the allied air offensive over Germany so even though the 262 was a far Better interceptor , It did;nt stand the test of time(could have passed or failed?)
The Hurricane Mk.I was not a potent interceptor. The eight Browning .303cal machine guns were not suitable for knocking down bombers. The cost for the Luftwaffe during the Battle of Britain would have been many times higher had the Hurricanes been equipped with four Hispano Mk.II 20 mm cannon like in the Hurricane IIC. Too many He 111 and Do 17s went home from Britain for the Hurricane to be called an effective bomber destroyer.
The Bf 109E was a better bomber destroyer than the Hurricane. The RAF would have greatly appreiciated a cannon armed fighter during the Battle of Britain. The Spitfire Mk.IB unfortunately had teething troubles and was not in widespread use because of the cannons reliability issues.
The Bf 109E was a better bomber destroyer than the Hurricane. The RAF would have greatly appreiciated a cannon armed fighter during the Battle of Britain. The Spitfire Mk.IB unfortunately had teething troubles and was not in widespread use because of the cannons reliability issues.
Tony Williams
Airman 1st Class
Thanks for the article, Tony.
The Spitfire Mk.IB would have been a powerful asset to the RAF during the Battle of Britain. I think it might have been better to equip the Hurricane with the cannon rather than the Spitfire though. In August 1940 the eight Browning .303 could deal with the Bf 109, the problems arose when the same weapons were used against the bombers. And since the Hurricane was attacking the bombers I would have thought to put the cannon in them.
The reliability of the cannon saved many German planes and pilots from destruction though. On 16 August seven No.19 Sqdn. Spitfire Mk.IBs engaged the enemy, only one of those Spitfires had both cannons functioning properly. 19 August, three Spitfires engaged the enemy with no cannons functioning, 24 August two out of the eight Spitfires that engaged had their cannons functioning and on 31 August there were three out of the six Spitfires with cannons functioning. In four days of combat twenty-four Spitfire Mk.IBs engaged the enemy, six of those had their cannons functioning. With a 75% failure rating of the cannon, we cannot blame Sqn Ldr R. Pinkham for sending a complaint to his superiors:
"In all the engagements so far occuring it is considered that, had the unit been equipped with eight-gun fighters, it would have inflicted far more severe losses on the enemy. It is most strongly urged that until the stoppages at present experienced have been eliminated, this squadron should be re-equipped with Browning-gun Spitfires."
In September, Fighter Command accepted this and No.19 Sqdn. traded the Spitfire Mk IB in for the Spitfire Mk IIA. One pilot did achieve some success in this otherwise failure. The ace Flt Sgt George Unwin flew Spitfire Mk IB #R6776 during it's short stay at No.19 Sqdn. He claimed thirteen (13) kills during 1940 in Spitfire Mk.IA, B and Mk IIA aircraft.
The Spitfire Mk.IB would have been a powerful asset to the RAF during the Battle of Britain. I think it might have been better to equip the Hurricane with the cannon rather than the Spitfire though. In August 1940 the eight Browning .303 could deal with the Bf 109, the problems arose when the same weapons were used against the bombers. And since the Hurricane was attacking the bombers I would have thought to put the cannon in them.
The reliability of the cannon saved many German planes and pilots from destruction though. On 16 August seven No.19 Sqdn. Spitfire Mk.IBs engaged the enemy, only one of those Spitfires had both cannons functioning properly. 19 August, three Spitfires engaged the enemy with no cannons functioning, 24 August two out of the eight Spitfires that engaged had their cannons functioning and on 31 August there were three out of the six Spitfires with cannons functioning. In four days of combat twenty-four Spitfire Mk.IBs engaged the enemy, six of those had their cannons functioning. With a 75% failure rating of the cannon, we cannot blame Sqn Ldr R. Pinkham for sending a complaint to his superiors:
"In all the engagements so far occuring it is considered that, had the unit been equipped with eight-gun fighters, it would have inflicted far more severe losses on the enemy. It is most strongly urged that until the stoppages at present experienced have been eliminated, this squadron should be re-equipped with Browning-gun Spitfires."
In September, Fighter Command accepted this and No.19 Sqdn. traded the Spitfire Mk IB in for the Spitfire Mk IIA. One pilot did achieve some success in this otherwise failure. The ace Flt Sgt George Unwin flew Spitfire Mk IB #R6776 during it's short stay at No.19 Sqdn. He claimed thirteen (13) kills during 1940 in Spitfire Mk.IA, B and Mk IIA aircraft.
Glider
Captain
There were some Hurricane equiped with 2 x 20mm in the BOB. If I recall they didn't have as bad a time reliability wise as the Spitfire but had a large performance penalty as the guns were below the wing.
I do hope I am remembering correctly but there was one pilot killed in the battle who stuck with these and shot a bomber down at over 400 yards which with a 303 was almost a fantasy land range.
Must dig around and find the details
I do hope I am remembering correctly but there was one pilot killed in the battle who stuck with these and shot a bomber down at over 400 yards which with a 303 was almost a fantasy land range.
Must dig around and find the details
Glider
Captain
Found some details. The plane flew with 151 squadron and amongst the planes it shot down was a Do17. I don't know if this was the long range shot but it did have reliability problems as well as the loss of performance.
Tony Williams
Airman 1st Class
Yes, there was one Hurricane fitted with two Hispanos (sometimes wrongly identified as Oerlikons) in underwing gun pods. The performance penalty actually wasn't that great. As the guns were mounted right-way-up instead of on their sides, reliability would have been better than in the early Spitfire installation.
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum
First post here
I think the Fw 190A-8/R-2 and Me 262 are both very potent bomber destroyers.
The Me 262 with its high speed slashing attacks would cut through bomber boxes like hot butter, look at the results of JG 7 during their campaign against the Eighth during spring 1945, especially late March, when they shot down 18 B-17s on the 18th, almost repeated that score on the 21st and 22nd and downed 23 RAF Lancs and Halifaxes on the 31st to finish the bill. Too bad it was emplyed too late, if given to a crack bomber destroyer formation like JG 2 or 3 it would definately have destroyed more.
The A-8/R-2 would pump a Fortress full of lead in a matter of seconds with its 2x 13mm heavy machineguns, twin 20mm cannons and double MK 108 explosive shells, but it was on the slow side and inferior to the Mustang. Still, it could attack bombers head-on with deadly effect, something the Me 262 could not due to its high speed.
As a sidenote, it was determined that with the MK 108 cannon the pilot only needed to put three rounds on average (!) into a bomber to bring it down, so speaking of armament the aircraft are almost equal.
I consider the Bf 110 and Me 410 to be very good bomber interceptors as well. If they were escorted properly, these Zerstörers could wreak havoc amongst the B-17s and B-24s with their quadruple 20mm cannons plus four 7.9mm machineguns in the nose, and four 210mm heavy rockets in addition. Maybe its just because I like them in Flight sims, being a very stable gunnery platform for taking down heavies.
Just my 2 cents,
Nick
I think the Fw 190A-8/R-2 and Me 262 are both very potent bomber destroyers.
The Me 262 with its high speed slashing attacks would cut through bomber boxes like hot butter, look at the results of JG 7 during their campaign against the Eighth during spring 1945, especially late March, when they shot down 18 B-17s on the 18th, almost repeated that score on the 21st and 22nd and downed 23 RAF Lancs and Halifaxes on the 31st to finish the bill. Too bad it was emplyed too late, if given to a crack bomber destroyer formation like JG 2 or 3 it would definately have destroyed more.
The A-8/R-2 would pump a Fortress full of lead in a matter of seconds with its 2x 13mm heavy machineguns, twin 20mm cannons and double MK 108 explosive shells, but it was on the slow side and inferior to the Mustang. Still, it could attack bombers head-on with deadly effect, something the Me 262 could not due to its high speed.
As a sidenote, it was determined that with the MK 108 cannon the pilot only needed to put three rounds on average (!) into a bomber to bring it down, so speaking of armament the aircraft are almost equal.
I consider the Bf 110 and Me 410 to be very good bomber interceptors as well. If they were escorted properly, these Zerstörers could wreak havoc amongst the B-17s and B-24s with their quadruple 20mm cannons plus four 7.9mm machineguns in the nose, and four 210mm heavy rockets in addition. Maybe its just because I like them in Flight sims, being a very stable gunnery platform for taking down heavies.
Just my 2 cents,
Nick
- Thread starter
- #653
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Many Fw pilots disliked the Mk108 30mm due to its problems with jamming during high G maneuvers and high deflection... Konrad "Pitt" Bauer was one pilot out of many that retained the 4x 20mm set up.....
That being said, the A-8/R2 of II./JG300 and several other Sturmgruppen was extremely effective and is my choice...
That being said, the A-8/R2 of II./JG300 and several other Sturmgruppen was extremely effective and is my choice...
Just out of curiosity, what were the notable successes and 'black days' of II.(Sturm)/JG 300? I can think of many concerning IV./JG 3, but did this Sturmgruppe destroy 'heavies' in any significant numbers?
BTW, what about II.(Sturm)/JG 4? Any remarks and/or notable feats abouth them ?
BTW, what about II.(Sturm)/JG 4? Any remarks and/or notable feats abouth them
?
Erich
the old Sage
of course
for JG 300, September 11, 12, 27 and 28th, although in my opinion the JG 3 Sturms claimed most of the 445th bg B-24's on the 27th of September.
October, 6 and 7th, 44. January 14, 45 for JG 300 only.
II.Sturm/JG 4 on Sept. 11, 44 their first action they wiped 100th bg but in turn almost got wiped out by P-51's. November 2, 44 along with Sturms of JG 3.
by the way as for K. Bauer he felt the four 2cm weapons were enough to take out the bombers and they did but also wanted a better aero Fw 190 without the heavier weight of ammo/Mk 108 and all the Sturm armor when confronting P-51's ............. he was not alone in his feelings, several JG 3 Sturm pilots did the same as well as JG 300 ~ Ernst Schröder comes to mind
for JG 300, September 11, 12, 27 and 28th, although in my opinion the JG 3 Sturms claimed most of the 445th bg B-24's on the 27th of September.
October, 6 and 7th, 44. January 14, 45 for JG 300 only.
II.Sturm/JG 4 on Sept. 11, 44 their first action they wiped 100th bg but in turn almost got wiped out by P-51's. November 2, 44 along with Sturms of JG 3.
by the way as for K. Bauer he felt the four 2cm weapons were enough to take out the bombers and they did but also wanted a better aero Fw 190 without the heavier weight of ammo/Mk 108 and all the Sturm armor when confronting P-51's ............. he was not alone in his feelings, several JG 3 Sturm pilots did the same as well as JG 300 ~ Ernst Schröder comes to mind
- Thread starter
- #656
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Ive been researching one specific day for the Sturms....
25 July 1944
II./JG300 launched an attack on the Liberators of the 461st BG over Linz, Austria... 14 armored Fw190-A8/R2's came in unopposed and unleashed a fury of 20mm and 30mm rounds that devastated the box... They had enough time to mount a second attack upon the formation before being bounced by P-51's....
4. Staffel claimed 3 kills, 5. Staffel claimed 4 kills, 6. Staffel claimed 4 kills, and the Stab claimed one, for a total of 12 kills, all within about 4 minutes...
II./JG300 lost 1 pilot and 2 FW's....
For a twist, it was on this mission that the crew of All American, a B-24, set a record with 14 fighters shot down....
Linz was Heinrich Bartels home town BTW, and there was a concentration camp there as well, KZ Gusen... It was there that guards shot a seargent who was coming down in his chute....
25 July 1944
II./JG300 launched an attack on the Liberators of the 461st BG over Linz, Austria... 14 armored Fw190-A8/R2's came in unopposed and unleashed a fury of 20mm and 30mm rounds that devastated the box... They had enough time to mount a second attack upon the formation before being bounced by P-51's....
4. Staffel claimed 3 kills, 5. Staffel claimed 4 kills, 6. Staffel claimed 4 kills, and the Stab claimed one, for a total of 12 kills, all within about 4 minutes...
II./JG300 lost 1 pilot and 2 FW's....
For a twist, it was on this mission that the crew of All American, a B-24, set a record with 14 fighters shot down....
Linz was Heinrich Bartels home town BTW, and there was a concentration camp there as well, KZ Gusen... It was there that guards shot a seargent who was coming down in his chute....
Erich
the old Sage
Les don't forget the carnage inflicted by Bf 109G-6's on the same date from I./JG 300 against B-24's. the 109's were also flying top cover for the 14 SturmFw's and A-8' mix.
Actually one of the haireist Sturm attacks was the very first one put on 7-7-44, JG 3 Sturms and JG 300 Sturms/A-8's along with it's top cover of Bf 109G-6's attacked en-masse inflicting over 50 bombers destroyed. there were actually two defensive maneuvers this date which is very confusing and the US vets nearly everyone I have interviewed about this mission remembers the attacks by Me 410's which in reality did not add up to much except to get their butts kicked by US escort fighters. the 8th AF attacked and then the US 15th AF attacked and came up a bit to the north where it got entangled with JG 3 and JG 300
Actually one of the haireist Sturm attacks was the very first one put on 7-7-44, JG 3 Sturms and JG 300 Sturms/A-8's along with it's top cover of Bf 109G-6's attacked en-masse inflicting over 50 bombers destroyed. there were actually two defensive maneuvers this date which is very confusing and the US vets nearly everyone I have interviewed about this mission remembers the attacks by Me 410's which in reality did not add up to much except to get their butts kicked by US escort fighters. the 8th AF attacked and then the US 15th AF attacked and came up a bit to the north where it got entangled with JG 3 and JG 300
Erich:
Great information as usual.
What about the anti-bomber deeds of JG 1 and JG 11? The Bf 109s of both units too sent way too many heavy bombers to litter the German landscape.
I will agree the Fw 190 A-8s fitted with the extra-armour and heavy wing cannon were the best heavy bomber killers, but the 109s too proved they were capable in that sort of missions.
One question Erich, a few weeks ago i was watching some of my Luftwaffe videos and guncamera footage, and shown is a flight of 109s equipped with the 151/20 cannon under the wings. What i detected -for the first time even though i had seen it so many times- is those Bf 109s do not have the bulges on top of the cowling common in the G-6 variant. What version of the 109 were those?
Cheers!
Great information as usual.
What about the anti-bomber deeds of JG 1 and JG 11? The Bf 109s of both units too sent way too many heavy bombers to litter the German landscape.
I will agree the Fw 190 A-8s fitted with the extra-armour and heavy wing cannon were the best heavy bomber killers, but the 109s too proved they were capable in that sort of missions.
One question Erich, a few weeks ago i was watching some of my Luftwaffe videos and guncamera footage, and shown is a flight of 109s equipped with the 151/20 cannon under the wings. What i detected -for the first time even though i had seen it so many times- is those Bf 109s do not have the bulges on top of the cowling common in the G-6 variant. What version of the 109 were those?
Cheers!
Erich
the old Sage
109G-5's but probably G-14/AS. G-6/AS was not fitted with underwing 2cm as they were to provide high top cover against the Mustang.
yes JG 1 and JG 11 especially JG 11 had Fw 190A-7/MK in all of 2./JG 11, and of course the standard A-8. JG 1 and JG 11 from late 43 through spring of 44 attacked from the front in a wedge, just the reverse direction of the SturmFw's of JG 3, 4 and 300 in July of 44 till January of 45.
JG 1 and JG 11 was hoping to take out the crew in the cockpit of the heavy bombers but the time to score hits even with the heavier wing mounted 30mm's was slight. you had to be a proficient pilot to acquire the knack with only 5 seconds; hit the bomber and if you made it through the Pulk attack the next one in line and then Split-S away and down
good to see you back here Udet .
yes JG 1 and JG 11 especially JG 11 had Fw 190A-7/MK in all of 2./JG 11, and of course the standard A-8. JG 1 and JG 11 from late 43 through spring of 44 attacked from the front in a wedge, just the reverse direction of the SturmFw's of JG 3, 4 and 300 in July of 44 till January of 45.
JG 1 and JG 11 was hoping to take out the crew in the cockpit of the heavy bombers but the time to score hits even with the heavier wing mounted 30mm's was slight. you had to be a proficient pilot to acquire the knack with only 5 seconds; hit the bomber and if you made it through the Pulk attack the next one in line and then Split-S away and down
good to see you back here Udet .
Tony Williams
Airman 1st Class
Has that been confirmed by German records of losses?
There are three figures which apply to shoot-downs by US bombers: the claims of the crews; the figures accepted by the USAAF (maybe two-thirds of the first figure); and the figures confirmed by postwar examination of German records (maybe one-sixth of the accepted figure).
If the "14 fighters shot down" came from US records, the true figure was probably 2 or 3.
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