Best Bomber Killing Aircraft......

drgondog · May 31, 2007

It has been too long since I was in one and I Never personally dove to Miltary Max (.75 Mach), and my flying experience was solely with the -30. I also recall the biggest issue was not only structural but the turbulence on the airfoil surfaces due to 'rippling effect' on the pull out - I never experienced that either

From the history, the 51G was the very fastest of all the Mustangs with 490+mph TAS at 22,000 feet with a Service celing of 46,000ft... the only Mustang in the Ta152 class and the thought leader behind the 51H as far as weight reduction.

I think (CRS) that the max diving speed at altitude was 270? mph at 40,000 ft (where I also never even thought about) IAS which is about .75 Mach at STP.

Each aircraft had different issues at Mcr for that a/c. As I recall from literature the 262 had a severe 'pitch down' which is a very bad thing when stick forces are already like concrete..

As the topic was Ta 152 I don't have a clue regarding its Mcr issues.

Regards,

Bill

renrich · Jun 1, 2007

Some interesting inf. Knew a man who was Air Force in 50s-60s, flew 86s and 102s. Said in ACM between F80 and F9F at high altitude, 40000 ft Panther had a real advantage because it had a higher Mach #, in other words, got into compressibility at a higher TAS than F80. At 40000 ft the gap between stalling speed and compressibility on F80 was so narrow it was like walking a tight rope. Slow down a tiny bit, stall and spin. Speed up a bit and into compressibility and out of control.

Erich · Jun 1, 2007

side note : the Ta 152H's intended role was to intercept the P-51D and K not engage bombers

lesofprimus · Jun 1, 2007

I was about to say that Erich lol...

drgondog · Jun 1, 2007

Eric and Dan - of course you are right but if the Ta152 wants to find the 51s the first place to look is at 24K to 30K - not way up - because the 51s are with the bombers.

And to belabor the point, the 51H was in production in March 1945 and could have been expedited if the D9 and Ta152 had been hurting us severely. Mike Williams repository of USAAF tests on the 51H didn't show the speed that the factory had (487TAS stripped) but still 450+ at 25000 feet with full ammo/Guns and 180 gal internal fuel (bleed fus tank before flight).

Remember the H was 900 pounds lighter than the 51D while the P-47N and M went the other way from the 47D to get the fuel

so, the 152 might have represented a much faster bird at 36+ it wasn't such a big advantage at 25K over the 51H which was also more nimble than the 51D in every way.

BTW Eric I have never seen valid LW flight test data on either the Ta 152 series or the 190D-12/13 with functioning 3 stage blower on the Jumo 213 - so I have never been able to understand what the birds could do with full combat load in the 25K range. Can you point me in right direction.

Now, I'm gonna have my feelings hurt if you pile on..

Erich · Jun 1, 2007

Bill:

III./JG 301 had 35 TA 152H-0's at their disposal starting at mid-January 1945 along with their Fw 190A-8's.

the questions/answers you seek are suppose to be given in Monograms book on the Ta 152 that was supposed to have been published last summer. Still not published which is quite discouraging.

As the Ta 152H flew combat ops at medium altitude we are never going to know fully what the bird was able to do at over 28,000 feet

lesofprimus · Jun 2, 2007

And to get back on topic, I still feel that the armor plated Fw 190A-8/R8 was the best bomber killer, even over the vaunted 262 and the R4Ms...

drgondog · Jun 2, 2007

Dan - I would offer no rebuttal on the Strumbock as the most effective for maybe a 3-5 month period... and from July through December 1944 it inflicted the most damage in short bursts of time than any other 'bomber killer'

Having said that, it was so vulnerable to the 51s and 47s and 38s that it needed serious escort to survive when the fighters were there.

So maybe the question is, Most Dangerous if escorted effectively or Most Dangerous with no escort required (at least until it was landing)

The 262 was not as effective ship by ship initially because the the initial (JV44 with serious expertise for example) pilots struggled over tactics and speed. A tail end shot had the same closing speed as a company front A8 attack... but once they got it right it was high diddle diddle right up the middle and all we could do is chase and hope to catch up when they landed.

The Leipzig battles on 7 July 44, and Kassel on 27 Sep 44 and Hannover area 26 Nov 44 are all examples where one or two B-24 wings were brutalized by the A8s, but in each case the Fw190A8s were in turn decimated at a time when the LW couldn't 'trade' pilot losses.

Eric blessed the forum some time ago with the experiences of JG301 on the 26th when they clobbered the 491st and 445th BG and in turn were near annhilated by 51s of 355 and 339FG's

These birds would have been awesome in 1943 when the escorts had to turn back well before targets, and certainly more agile than a heavily armed 110 or 410, but it was dogmeat for the escort fighters.

As always I can often be wrong but rarely uncertain so take the opinion for what it is worth and leave the rest..

Bill

drgondog · Jun 2, 2007

Erich said:
Bill:

III./JG 301 had 35 TA 152H-0's at their disposal starting at mid-January 1945 along with their Fw 190A-8's.

the questions/answers you seek are suppose to be given in Monograms book on the Ta 152 that was supposed to have been published last summer. Still not published which is quite discouraging.

As the Ta 152H flew combat ops at medium altitude we are never going to know fully what the bird was able to do at over 28,000 feet

Eric - I can't help myself - was mid January like the 13th before the bloodbath JG301 was in the next day, or the 15th to replace all the A8s that went down to the 357th? Did the 152H engage on the 14th?

lesofprimus · Jun 2, 2007

I had almost typed in on my original post about the lack of escort fighter interference, or the Sturms high cover staffel intercepting, but left it out....

U are quite correct Bill... The heavily loaded down R8's were no match for the 51D escorts, on any level, as had been proven many times... It still didnt stop those guys from going up every day or so and layin it on the line....

As far as the 14th goes for JG 301, the loss records indicate A-8's, A-9's and Doras going down.... The tranistion was about to happen...

On the 27th of Jan, III./JG301 was withdrawn from Ops and re-equipped..... Will Reschke was driven on the 27th to Neuhausen factory near Cottbus and made his first flight in the Tank at 11:08 am and landed back at Alteno at 11:28...

From what I have available, there were never more than 16 H-0's and H-1's from the period of transition....

drgondog · Jun 2, 2007

Dan - my kindly, soft spoken, cocky old man had a chance to fly several LW ships post war when the 355th was at Gablingen.

One of them was a D9 which he got some 15-20 hours doing some ad hoc field trials against the 51D-30. He liked the D9 (liked the 51 better - what a suprise - stock answer), thought the 109 was 'dangerous to the unitiated', but remarked that he had heard of both the the Ta 152 and the Do335 but never had a chance to fly either one.

He enjoyed the Fw190 most of all as a 'pilot's' airplane. He didn't remember which version except that it was armed with only two 20mm cannon in wing and thought 15mm under cowl - so it wasn't an A8.. actually it could have been an F and he may not have known the difference.

The difficulty in these types of threads (back to topic) is that even while this forum has categorized well specific MISSIONs that the fighter/bomber/pick one, is discussed, grappling with the BEST is still subjective - so I guess that is why this is called a Forum..

As much as I think and believe that the 51 was the most IMPORTANT fighter that opinion is equally based on what I thought was the most important MISSION for airpower in WWII - namely the destruction of the LW and German industry

If you twisted the objectives to be met by the BEST or MOST IMPORTANT to include for discussion only those fighters which performed well at every role then you immediately narrow down to Carrier based fighters that also acted in Interceptor, Long Range Escort, Fighter Bomber, Recon, Night Interceptor roles - real short list here.. you end up with a fighter which starts with F and ends with a U or F

It is only after many years of bliss in my opinion that the 51 was the BEST that I am cringingly concluding that that title deservedly belongs to the F4U-4 or 5.

Bill

drgondog · Jun 2, 2007

E - did I send these JG301 adversaries during 26 Nov to you? You are welcome to use.
First two are Whitlow and Whalen - 2SF (Ialso have Ceglarski if you need)
Next is Duffy's WR-Y on 26 Nov
Next is Hauver's WR-R in early Dec
Last is Lyons OSF -

As you might expect I either have most/all of the pilots and ships scoring
(355/2SF) that day if you need for some project

Regards,

Bill

renrich · Jun 2, 2007

Bill, certainly enjoy your posts, not only well informed but well written. Have you written and published? Please don't let what I next say diminish my appreciation for your writing style and informative posts but you are thinking right because you think like me. What a remarkable design Mr Rex Beisel and his crew came up with in 1938 when the F4U began gestation. I have been an advocate for the Corsair ever since I saw a picture of the XF4U in a book during WW2 but especially since I worked at Temco in the 50s and went out to the flight line to see a few Corsairs that Vought had next door. To have designed a fighter that could play the many roles, and play them well, as you pointed out in your post is to me one of the outstnding achievements in aviation history. Of course PW must get some of the credit for the R2800 but Beisel and company pulled a rabbit out of the hat.

Erich · Jun 2, 2007

renrich he has written THE book on the 355th fg "Angles, bulldogs and Dragons" which he is rewriting now with added new information. guys it will be a must have for a fact.

Bill thanks for those pics again, yes have a couple of them and was great to be in contact by phone and e-mail with Lyons and getting his memories about chasing down Bf 109G's on 26 Nov. 44.

Les yes Reschke told me there were 35 Ta's in III. gruppe of JG 301 and it dwindled down due to take off and landing accidents at a pretty fast rate, none by combat ops. Thanks for looking up when III./JG 301 took on the Ta 152H-0's. As I said Fw 190A-8 including A-8/R-2's with cowling mg 131's were still in the III. gruppe as well. the A-8/R2's did not have the extra armor plateing of the SturmFw's in JG 3, 4 and JG 300, but were straight up A-8's but had outter 2cm removed and replaced by heavier 3cm cannon, ah but I must say I do have a pic of one such bird of prey that did have panzerplatten-armor plate on the fuselage side but in most cases all of the heavy steel was removed.

renrich · Jun 2, 2007

Thanks for the info on Bill, Erich. That sounds like a must read.

Erich · Jun 2, 2007

yes it sure is.

note my avatar, Sturms from Jg 300 and the first one is unusual in the fact of two things

# 1 note the yellow defence fuselage band instead of red as the A-8 origins in Jg 11.

# 2 note the canopy compared to the other SturmFw's, see the Scheuklappen "blinkers" ~ forming an extra protective glass screen on either side of the canopy. something that JG 4 and JG 300 Sturm crews had removed due to severe icing

ok back to JG 301 Sturms heres a pic that will be published elsewhere in a very special book that I will say nothing about at this time except it is going to be pretty bloody informative

a much more serene situation eh ?

Altenwolf kommt !

lesofprimus · Jun 2, 2007

Excellent pic, thx Erich....

FLYBOYJ · Jun 2, 2007

Very Cool Erich!!!

Where's Lanc?

lesofprimus · Jun 2, 2007

I was wonderin the same thing Joe lol...

drgondog · Jun 2, 2007

For Dan - A friend of mine is a really fine artist with a sense of the whimsical and two of his favorite subjects are Cape's and Lions.

From Adam Freeman to you - not exactly ww2 aviation but there are 'similarities'
the first is a white hunter and tracker that have pi$$ed off a cape with a .470 and his buds in the background want a piece (they don't always run AWAY from shots -lol)

The second is the wounded buff content to snack after it's over - but he can't get the pesky T-shirt off yet.

The third is Lefty. He sees you and you have just noticed him

the fourth is Lefty when he is old and tossed from the Pride by a younger male and the Hyena's 'think' he's dinner

the last are three of my Wolfies chasing a wolf - a painting work in process

Regards,

Bill

PS the second one could be the real 'you'

Best Bomber Killing Aircraft......

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