33k in the air
Staff Sergeant
- 1,356
- Jan 31, 2021
Are those documents available online?
If not, would you mind sharing more of the data that it contains?
Best bombs against Oil and Industrial Targets
- Thread starter wuzak
- Start date
Are those documents available online?
If not, would you mind sharing more of the data that it contains?
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
A "Lobster Pot" was an anchored emergency bouy for downed airmen that could hold several crew at a time.
They held emergency rations, first aid kits, towels and blankets.
They were checked by both the British and German navy periodically.
They held emergency rations, first aid kits, towels and blankets.
They were checked by both the British and German navy periodically.
Snautzer01
Marshal
- 46,292
- Mar 26, 2007
I doubt that an aircraft would have dropped an "anchored emergency buoy". Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Surely those would have been deployed by the Navy. The anchoring apparatus would involve lines, anchors and so forth. I can't imagine doing that before or after a bombing operation on land.
jim
Further to this. I'm not doubting the existence of a anchored buoy for downed airmen. I just don't think the reference to a Lobster Pot in the 617 ORB relates to the dropping of a buoy.
The raid in question was to an "aero engine" factory to Lyons, March 23, 1944. Middlebrook and Everitt also refer to the target as "Lyons". I suspect the target was "Lyon", without the "s" as there is no town called Lyons. They carried 11 X 1,000 lb bombs, not including the Lobster Pot. If it was Lyon, it was a deep penetration into the SE of France, and they were airborne for 6 hours. I really doubt they dropped a buoy in addition to the bombing raid.
The raid in question was to an "aero engine" factory to Lyons, March 23, 1944. Middlebrook and Everitt also refer to the target as "Lyons". I suspect the target was "Lyon", without the "s" as there is no town called Lyons. They carried 11 X 1,000 lb bombs, not including the Lobster Pot. If it was Lyon, it was a deep penetration into the SE of France, and they were airborne for 6 hours. I really doubt they dropped a buoy in addition to the bombing raid.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
My take on the part about "two aircraft making use of a lobster pot" is that they ditched near one in the channel and made it safely aboard.
Were any bombers listed as lost on that mission?
Were any bombers listed as lost on that mission?
Hi
The book 'Bomber Command Losses, 1944' by Chorley has no losses for 617 Sqn. for the night of 23/24 (or 20th) March, so they would rule out the 'rescue float' option.
If "Lobster Pot" is slang for a marker it may be the 250 lb 'Spot Fire' which came in two colours including 'Red Spot Fire', maybe Red Spot/Lobster Pot? Just a suggestion, but not sure they would not just use 'Red Spot'. Markers had other names as well including "Pink Pansy" using the 4000 lb HC bomb case but weighing 2800 lb, the initial flash was a distinctive pink colour hence the name.
Sorry I can't be more help.
Mike
There were no losses on this operation. The ORB "Records" Summary for March are for some reason absent at TNA. I am citing a 3rd party listing for the operation:
Not ideal I realize, but this fellow's work has generally been reliable. I've compared his transcription with records from other months and it has been accurate. I agree, Mike. I think it is possibly slang for some other marker. There is mention of other flares, spot fires and T.I.'s, variously carried by crews. Cheshire was on this raid.
Jim
Not ideal I realize, but this fellow's work has generally been reliable. I've compared his transcription with records from other months and it has been accurate. I agree, Mike. I think it is possibly slang for some other marker. There is mention of other flares, spot fires and T.I.'s, variously carried by crews. Cheshire was on this raid.
Jim
Geoffrey Sinclair
Staff Sergeant
- 1,271
- Sep 30, 2021
The National Archives | Discovery Advanced Search Form "Bomber Command monthly summaries" says none of the AIR 14/927 to 931 are digitised, nor is AIR 22/203 to 206 the War Room Manuals, it requires a visit.
AIR 14/927 etc Structure is monthly summaries, day and night, with daily entries by aircraft type and operation, December 1944 data comes to 15 pages. Sorties summary, bombing sorties and bombs dropped, minelaying sorties and mines laid/bombs dropped, leaflet raids and bombs dropped, reconnaissance sorties, anti submarine and other miscellaneous sorties (all including aircraft losses and damaged and personnel losses killed/missing), daily aircraft and crew strength. For some reason bombs dropped by 100 Group appear to be omitted. Special Duty sorties are from February 1944.
Entire spreadsheet comes to around 2.4 Mb, including working pages, not just the data. What information are you after?
By the way the Bomber Command Raid Sheets, Air 14/2664 on (night), and AIR 3283 on (day), give the results by Group and aircraft, not by squadron, so what you are doing fills in a gap, assuming any group reports do not give by squadron figures.
AIR 14/930 Lancaster effort
20/21 March 1944, 20 sorties, all attacked the primary target Angouleme, 7x8,000 pound M2, 6x8,000 pound HC, 8x1,000 pound MC, 8x1,000 pound GP, 7x250 pound marker bombs, 1,098x30 pound incendiary, no flares. No aircraft damage or casualties.
23/24 March 1944, 20 sorties, 14 attacked the primary target Lyons (Note another non Lancaster force was attacking Laon), 114x1,000 pound MC, 28x1,000 pound GP, 10x250 pound marker bombs, 48 flares. No aircraft damage or casualties.
No mentions of Lobster Pots.
According to the usual histories 617 squadron put up 14 sorties on both 20/21 and 23/24 March, 106 squadron supplied a flare force on 23/24 March, no information on other Lancasters for 20/21 March.
Using the totals from http://s310295659.websitehome.co.uk/dambusters/drupal/docs/recordbook.pdf
617 Squadron dropped all the HE bombs on 20/21 and only 7 of the 33 marker bombs it carried, the incendiaries were dropped by the other Lancasters.
Assuming the 20th dates between 23rd and 25th are really 23rd, then again 617 squadron dropped all the HE bombs, but only 10 of the 23 marker bombs carried. Given the 106 squadron mission was flare dropping 617 squadron must have brought some the 46 flares carried back.
I have not followed up on this, but have you heard of the Alan Chambers database?
From the ADF serials October 2003 newsletter.
Bomber Command Project – Can you assist this worthwhile research project being undertaken by Alan Chambers in England? Alan explains his project….
I am working on a huge database that, hopefully, in the fullness of time, will record every Bomber Command sortie flown during the war. This database was started with the intention of helping out former Bomber Crewmembers re-discover what they actually did during the war. One benefit has been to assist families of these men out and has helped to put crews back together again for the first time since they were operational. My ultimate aim is to give copies to establishments that will enable it to be used as a learning tool for future generations, so they may more fully understand the sacrifice made for world peace.
My database is formed of some sixty-five sub-databases, each of which represents what I have been able to record about a particular squadron. Thus far, just over 84,000 sorties have been recorded from all squadrons. This, I'm sure you will agree, leaves a massive shortfall, though also, represents some considerable efforts from the former aircrew who have already helped me out. I have already collected over five hundred logbook copies that have been generously donated to my cause. Added to this, I have been able to obtain thirteen different squadron's full Operational Records Books, with another three squadrons where I have obtained over half of all sorties recorded by each squadron, much of this at my own expense, though I ask no fee to help people out. Many other squadrons already have very good coverage in my database.
I started researching the operational history of Bomber Command when I was thirteen years old, this was thirty years ago and the project is still going strong. I am often asked why I started this project, it's hard to come up with a definite answer to that question as I have a number of reasons, all true but one definitely not likely to be the reason.
From aged eight to thirty I lived in a small hamlet just to the east of Lincoln called Cherrywillingham, bordering the village is the old RAF Fiskerton airfield, the wartime home of 49 and 576 squadrons. This was my childhood play arena and many happy hours were spent on the old drome.
Further to the above, my middle school was actually housed in the old Sergeant's Mess of RAF Fiskerton. Although many of the buildings still standing in the playground area were decrepit, I enjoyed my time at this school enormously – thankfully, such dangerous conditions are no longer allowed where children are playing.
I lived on the flight path to RAF Waddington at the time and the Lancaster PA474 was based there, often it would draw the whole neighbourhood out as it went overhead.
I chose the Lancaster as my English project at senior school, as a result of this project I was able to reunite a crew and they suggested there was a need for this kind of research.
Should you decide you would like to contribute to this project, then below is an outline of what I am seeking. Obviously, it represents the whole spectrum of what I am looking for, though I would be happy with anything you are prepared to let me know. I would not presume to try and push you past a point that you are happy and comfortable with.
Information contained in log books concerning your time with Bomber command, starting at HCU and culminating with the final sortie flown. (This can be done by either photocopying the relevant pages, or a hand written or typed document, which copies the contents, each row would hopefully record all details written in the logbook. If this is too long a task, then please concentrate on the sorties flown.)
Copies of certificates/awards received (ie award of wings, bombing accuracy certificates, medals etc.)
Confirmation of service number.
Copies of photos. Particular photos of interest are:-
Individual aircrew members.
Whole or part aircrew.
Aircraft flown – Bombers only.
Panoramas of the airfield.
In flight shots.
Anything else considered by you to be relevant.
Any written work completed by you to support this project:-
Details of combat.
Details of damage.
Overview of single operation.
Overview of tour.
Off duty moments.
Time on camp.
Anything else considered by you to be relevant.
33k in the air
Staff Sergeant
- 1,356
- Jan 31, 2021
The kind of information you've given here . . .
. . . is excellent. Would it be possible to get a monthly total of the number and types of bombs dropped each month from August 1942 onward? It would help give a better picture of when certain types of ordnance stopped being dropped in meaningful numbers versus when others began being used.
I started to track the individual bomb loads a couple of years ago, but only in a rudimentary way. I eventually restarted with the idea of tracking more detail, since if I was going to go through squadron ORBs, I might as well track everything of potential interest at the same time rather than going back through them again later.
This time, I'm noting details of the ordnance type if given (e.g differentiating between 500-lb GP, MC, U.S. GP, U.S. SAP, etc.,). Pathfinder squadrons will require their own separate look, given the T.I. bombs and flare clusters they regularly carried.
I'm recording every sortie, regardless of whether it was a bombing mission, gardening operation, or something else. I'm noting the up and down time for each completed mission (allowing for the calculation of mission flight duration), as well as the bombing time and altitude, if stated. I'm not recording the serial number for each aircraft, but only for those aircraft which carried the heavier bombs (8,000-lb or more) and those which carried a mid-under gunner or additional crew member who was not a second pilot. The entries are in the same order as given in the ORBs, however, which means if someone wanted to take the results and go back and add serial numbers to each flight, they could without too much difficulty.
I record also the number of crew members, with a notation for any additional member beyond the normal amount, e.g. 'p' for second pilot, 'g' for mid-under gunner, and so forth. (This is to help track down which Halifax and Lancaster aircraft had a ventral gun position installed.)
I'm starting from August 1942, although I'll probably include a few earlier months in some cases. The biggest limitation is that plenty of squadron ORBs do not list bomb loads, and others list loads intermittently, or list them for some months and not others. I'm focusing on a roughly representative sample of aircraft types across Groups, of the squadrons whose ORBs do have bomb loads listed. I'm only looking at the periods for which load data regularly or mostly available. E.g. 102 Squadron ORBs started listing bomb loads in April 1944, so I'd start that squadron from that month.
I haven't, but it's something else for me to keep in mind and look into.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Staff Sergeant
- 1,271
- Sep 30, 2021
Interesting project, I would recommend adding serial numbers and aircraft letter.
Monthly totals are a press the button exercise for the categories listed, how the information would be readable in a message here is not so clear. As noted it looks like around 890 tons of 100 group bombs from May 1944 onwards are not in the information.
Restating the Categories, bombing sorties day and bombs dropped, bombing sorties night and bombs dropped, minelaying sorties and mines laid/bombs dropped, leaflet raids and bombs dropped, reconnaissance sorties, anti submarine and other miscellaneous sorties, including bombs dropped.
Monthly totals are a press the button exercise for the categories listed, how the information would be readable in a message here is not so clear. As noted it looks like around 890 tons of 100 group bombs from May 1944 onwards are not in the information.
Restating the Categories, bombing sorties day and bombs dropped, bombing sorties night and bombs dropped, minelaying sorties and mines laid/bombs dropped, leaflet raids and bombs dropped, reconnaissance sorties, anti submarine and other miscellaneous sorties, including bombs dropped.
One small statistic: on 32 operations on which dad was despatched, he carried 4,000 lb HC's on 24 or 75%. One op was an Abortive, OET, another was an ops recall. In both instances either the cookie or the full load were jettisoned and on one (Goch, Feb 7, 45) the master bomber wasn't heard and he didn't bomb and all bombs brought back.
So the cookie figured prominently. On several instances he carried 250 lb bombs. Those were a WOT but there was a shortage of 500 lb bombs.
I should add that Harris' Despatch on War Operations has a section on munitions and he talks about some of the issues with bombs during the war.
One last point: Routes for 6-Group aircraft were typically 2 hours longer than other Groups on the same raid. The bomb loads were less and petrol requirements higher. This affected Halifax squadrons in particular.
Jim
So the cookie figured prominently. On several instances he carried 250 lb bombs. Those were a WOT but there was a shortage of 500 lb bombs.
I should add that Harris' Despatch on War Operations has a section on munitions and he talks about some of the issues with bombs during the war.
One last point: Routes for 6-Group aircraft were typically 2 hours longer than other Groups on the same raid. The bomb loads were less and petrol requirements higher. This affected Halifax squadrons in particular.
Jim
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33k in the air
Staff Sergeant
- 1,356
- Jan 31, 2021
Perhaps just a list for each month by bomb type? E.g. something like this:
August 1942
500-lb SAP = 100 dropped
500-lb GP = 500
500-lb MC = 1,000
etc.
Of course, I don't know how much trouble that would be to do given how the data comes out of your database. But not all months need be done in one post; a few at a time is fine.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Staff Sergeant
- 1,271
- Sep 30, 2021
Due to the 20,000 character limit and the "charge" made against this by posting a spreadsheet I cannot post 1 year of data direct. The spreadsheet format based on one that would work as a posting. So time to see it attachments work.
33k in the air
Staff Sergeant
- 1,356
- Jan 31, 2021
Wow! Excellent stuff, thanks very much for posting that.
It's been downloaded and saved for posterity.
----------------
In regards to the ORB bomb load file I'm working on, here are the defined categories of bombs I've allotted so far, based on the text description stated in the ORBs and the types of bombs that were available based on period ordnance manuals.
12,000 lb HC
8,000 lb HC
4,000 lb HC M2 / Minol
4,000 lb HC
4,000 lb MC
4,000 lb GP
4,000 lb Minol generic (e.g. it just says "4,000 lb Minol" in the ORB)
4,000 lb generic (e.g. it just says "4,000 lb" in the ORB)
2,000 lb HC
2,000 lb MC
2,000 lb GP
2,000 lb generic (e.g. it just says "2,000 lb" in the ORB)
1,900 lb GP
1,000 lb MC
1,000 lb GP
1,000 lb GP U.S. / AN-M44 or AN-M65
1,000 lb SAP
1,000 lb SAP U.S. / AN-M59
1,000 lb LC
1,000 lb RDX
1,000 lb HE
1,000 lb generic (e.g. it just says "1,000 lb" in the ORB)
1,000 lb generic U.S. (e.g. it just says "1,000 lb USA" in the ORB)
500 lb MC
500 lb GP
500 lb GP U.S. / AN-M43 or AN-M64
500 lb SAP
500 lb SAP U.S. / AN-M58
500 lb HE
500 lb generic (e.g. it just says "500 lb" in the ORB)
500 lb generic U.S. (e.g. it just says "500 lb USA" in the ORB)
250 lb MC
250 lb GP
250 lb SAP
250 lb generic (e.g. it just says "250 lb" in the ORB)
40 lb GP
SBC – 6/8 x 40 lb GP
SBC – 12 x 20 lb F
No. 17 CP (26 x 20 lb F bombs)
500 lb incendiary U.S. / AN-M76
500 lb incendiary generic (e.g. it just says "500 lb incendiary" in the ORB)
250 lb incendiary
30-lb incendiary
4-lb incendiary
SBC – 150 x 4
SBC – 90 x 4
SBC – 60 x 4
SBC – 16 x 30
SBC – 12 x 30
SBC – 8 x 30
SBC generic (e.g. it just says "SBC" in the ORB without stating the size or number of incendiary bomb it contained)
SBC 30 lb generic(e.g. it just says "SBC 30 lb" in the ORB without stating the number of bombs in the SBC)
SBC 4 lb generic (e.g. it just says "SBC 4 lb" in the ORB without stating the number of bombs in the SBC)
No. 16 CP
No. 15 CP
No. 14 CP
No, 4 CP
M17 CP (U.S. cluster projectile AN-M17 carrying 110 x 4 lb incendiaries)
500 lb cluster (the ORB entry gives no other information to indicate whether this is the No. 4 or No. 14 CP)
Other (to record unusual or special loads, such as the 5,500 lb CS bomb)
Mines (to record the number of mines carried on a 'gardening' mission)
There may yet be more categories added as circumstances arise, but for now these are the ones I have set up. PFF squadrons will require their own separate list, due to the assortment of flares and T.I. bombs they used.
I also decided to record the aircraft serial number for each sortie, if it was stated. I'll have to go back and add that to the two squadrons I've already gone through (408 and 433). It's already in the current squadron being done (106).
33k in the air
Staff Sergeant
- 1,356
- Jan 31, 2021
Wow! Excellent stuff, thanks very much for posting that.
It's been downloaded and saved for posterity.
----------------
In regards to the ORB bomb load file I'm working on, here are the defined categories of bombs I've allotted so far, based on the text description stated in the ORBs and the types of bombs that were available based on period ordnance manuals.
12,000 lb HC
8,000 lb HC
4,000 lb HC M2 / Minol
4,000 lb HC
4,000 lb MC
4,000 lb GP
4,000 lb Minol generic (e.g. it just says "4,000 lb Minol" in the ORB)
4,000 lb generic (e.g. it just says "4,000 lb" in the ORB)
2,000 lb HC
2,000 lb MC
2,000 lb GP
2,000 lb generic (e.g. it just says "2,000 lb" in the ORB)
1,900 lb GP
1,000 lb MC
1,000 lb GP
1,000 lb GP U.S. / AN-M44 or AN-M65
1,000 lb SAP
1,000 lb SAP U.S. / AN-M59
1,000 lb LC
1,000 lb RDX
1,000 lb HE
1,000 lb generic (e.g. it just says "1,000 lb" in the ORB)
1,000 lb generic U.S. (e.g. it just says "1,000 lb USA" in the ORB)
500 lb MC
500 lb GP
500 lb GP U.S. / AN-M43 or AN-M64
500 lb SAP
500 lb SAP U.S. / AN-M58
500 lb HE
500 lb generic (e.g. it just says "500 lb" in the ORB)
500 lb generic U.S. (e.g. it just says "500 lb USA" in the ORB)
250 lb MC
250 lb GP
250 lb SAP
250 lb generic (e.g. it just says "250 lb" in the ORB)
40 lb GP
SBC – 6/8 x 40 lb GP
SBC – 12 x 20 lb F
No. 17 CP (26 x 20 lb F bombs)
500 lb incendiary U.S. / AN-M76
500 lb incendiary generic (e.g. it just says "500 lb incendiary" in the ORB)
250 lb incendiary
30-lb incendiary
4-lb incendiary
SBC – 150 x 4
SBC – 90 x 4
SBC – 60 x 4
SBC – 16 x 30
SBC – 12 x 30
SBC – 8 x 30
SBC generic (e.g. it just says "SBC" in the ORB without stating the size or number of incendiary bomb it contained)
SBC 30 lb generic(e.g. it just says "SBC 30 lb" in the ORB without stating the number of bombs in the SBC)
SBC 4 lb generic (e.g. it just says "SBC 4 lb" in the ORB without stating the number of bombs in the SBC)
No. 16 CP
No. 15 CP
No. 14 CP
No, 4 CP
M17 CP (U.S. cluster projectile AN-M17 carrying 110 x 4 lb incendiaries)
500 lb cluster (the ORB entry gives no other information to indicate whether this is the No. 4 or No. 14 CP)
Other (to record unusual or special loads, such as the 5,500 lb CS bomb)
Mines (to record the number of mines carried on a 'gardening' mission)
There may yet be more categories added as circumstances arise, but for now these are the ones I have set up. PFF squadrons will require their own separate list, due to the assortment of flares and T.I. bombs they used.
I also decided to record the aircraft serial number for each sortie, if it was stated. I'll have to go back and add that to the two squadrons I've already gone through (408 and 433). It's already in the current squadron being done (106).
A couple of additions to the categories:
Cluster – 4 lb generic
"J" cluster / Cluster "J" incendiaries / 500 lb "J" incendiaries (I'm 99% sure this refers to the No. 4 Cluster Projectile carrying 14 x 30 lb "J" type incendiary bombs, but as this isn't stated specifically, the general descriptions are added as one category)
Also, some aircraft of 106 Squadron carried the 500 lb incendiary bomb (the U.S. AN-M76) on several missions in September and October of 1944. So use of this particular ordnance wasn't limited to PFF squadrons.
Reluctant Poster
Tech Sergeant
- 1,776
- Dec 6, 2006
Mosquitoes were used to attack synthetic oil plants
Source please?
Reluctant Poster
Tech Sergeant
- 1,776
- Dec 6, 2006
