102first_hussars
Tech Sergeant
I always thought the Panther was big like the Tiger, but I swear that looks like the High Velocity 75mm gun, so it must be the panther
Best/Favourate Tank in the west
- Thread starter Yeomanz
- Start date
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I always thought the Panther was big like the Tiger, but I swear that looks like the High Velocity 75mm gun, so it must be the panther
Yeah it is a Panther but to me the wheelbase looks a bit short however the rest of it looks like a Panther which means it is (likely) one.
I don't doubt it, it is a Panther but most of the pictures I have seen it has what appears to be a longer wheelbase than this one - probably just the angle of the photo though.
Yes that is a Panther with the 224 on it. I took the picture a few months ago.
The M4 in my opinion can not be considered the best tank based of its design. The M4 was under armoured and under gunned compared to the Tigers and Panthers which in my opinoin were better tanks only because they could destroy the Sherman at ranges before the Sherman had a chance of penetrating there armour.
The 90mm armed M4s were actually tank destroyers and the armour was unchanged and could still be taken out at greater ranges by Tigers and Panthers.
The reason the Sherman was successful is only because of superior numbers when compared to the Tigers and Panthers and better tactics.
One on One a Sherman does not have a really good chance unless he has the surprise advantage over a Tiger or Panther.
The 90mm armed M4s were actually tank destroyers and the armour was unchanged and could still be taken out at greater ranges by Tigers and Panthers.
The reason the Sherman was successful is only because of superior numbers when compared to the Tigers and Panthers and better tactics.
One on One a Sherman does not have a really good chance unless he has the surprise advantage over a Tiger or Panther.
there was a retrofit kit available for the M4 to fit the 90MM gun to most Shermans..
The "Jumbo" version of the M4 had 100+ MM added to its existing armor.
This gave the Jumbo more frontal armor than the Panther or Tiger..
I read a very good story about a Tiger, arrogantly sitting on top of a hill, silhouetted by the setting sun, exposing its sides and firing on the Jumbos enhanced frontal armor..
Of course it merely bounced off the Jumbo, with its obviously superior armor to the Tiger..
The commander fired this 90mm M82 round at 2000 meters and killed the Tiger..
I supposed he thought it was an "undergunned, under armored" Sherman also, most Germans are unaware of this vehicle and made the same fatal mistake.
Check out the Jumbo.. 160 mm frontal armor.., don't make the same arrogant mistake the Tiger commander did.
The "Jumbo" version of the M4 had 100+ MM added to its existing armor.
This gave the Jumbo more frontal armor than the Panther or Tiger..
I read a very good story about a Tiger, arrogantly sitting on top of a hill, silhouetted by the setting sun, exposing its sides and firing on the Jumbos enhanced frontal armor..
Of course it merely bounced off the Jumbo, with its obviously superior armor to the Tiger..
The commander fired this 90mm M82 round at 2000 meters and killed the Tiger..
I supposed he thought it was an "undergunned, under armored" Sherman also, most Germans are unaware of this vehicle and made the same fatal mistake.
Check out the Jumbo.. 160 mm frontal armor.., don't make the same arrogant mistake the Tiger commander did.
but of course, you are generally correct..
But my favorite is the M4 "Jumbo" fitted with the 90mm... most never knew what they were dealing with..
Assault Tank M4A3E2 Sherman Jumbo belonging to the Patton Museum of Cavalry and Armor.
The extra armor welded to the glacias of this Jumbo Sherman is immediately apparent, along with the new turret and very thick gun shield. Fixtures such as headlights and sirens have been omitted from the hull front, however the bow machine gun was retained. This tank lacks the extended end connectors on its T48 tracks which helped to reduce ground pressure.
Medium Tank M4 Sherman
I like that kind of surprise, I find it appealing..
The 90 mm retrofit could be identified by its lack of muzzle brake.
776th Tank Destroyer Battalion Combat History
776th TD Battalion Slugger, displaying its powerful 90mm main gun. (Informal History of the 776th TD Battalion)
Photo- (non "jumbo" Sherman)
http://www.100thww2.org/support/m36front.jpg
The M36B1 was constructed by mating the 90mm M36 gun turret with the hull of the late-production M4A3 Sherman. Internal stowage was rearranged to accommodate the larger 90mm rounds.
90mm GMC M36
But my favorite is the M4 "Jumbo" fitted with the 90mm... most never knew what they were dealing with..
Assault Tank M4A3E2 Sherman Jumbo belonging to the Patton Museum of Cavalry and Armor.
The extra armor welded to the glacias of this Jumbo Sherman is immediately apparent, along with the new turret and very thick gun shield. Fixtures such as headlights and sirens have been omitted from the hull front, however the bow machine gun was retained. This tank lacks the extended end connectors on its T48 tracks which helped to reduce ground pressure.
Medium Tank M4 Sherman
I like that kind of surprise, I find it appealing..
The 90 mm retrofit could be identified by its lack of muzzle brake.
776th Tank Destroyer Battalion Combat History
776th TD Battalion Slugger, displaying its powerful 90mm main gun. (Informal History of the 776th TD Battalion)
Photo- (non "jumbo" Sherman)
http://www.100thww2.org/support/m36front.jpg
The M36B1 was constructed by mating the 90mm M36 gun turret with the hull of the late-production M4A3 Sherman. Internal stowage was rearranged to accommodate the larger 90mm rounds.
90mm GMC M36
Excuse me, did I insult you anywhere? Dont make smart as comments to me. If you wish to carry on a decent conversation that is fine and we can learn from each other but dont be a smart ass, especially when you are newbie!
Photo #6
Captain Jack Rothschild, 776th TD Battalion, examines the wreckage of the first Hunting Tiger ever destroyed on the Western Front, killed by the crew led by Lieutenant John C. Britz. Near Rimling, January 1945. (NA)
776th Tank Destroyer Battalion Combat History
One photo is worth, as we say 1000 words..you can also check out the 90mm M4 Sherman in photo #2
776th TD Battalion Slugger, displaying its powerful 90mm main gun. (Informal History of the 776th TD Battalion) -Obviously a Sherman
and I am unaware of any American 90mm 'Howitzer'.... //?
maybe you mean the 105 mm Howitzer, which could consistently penetrate a Panther at 600 yards...
check the links..
U.S. Test No.2
U.S. Test No.3
I have seen these documents elsewhere, but these are handy at the moment..
Anyway, my favorite is the Sherman Jumbo with the 140 mm thick armor and the 90mm gun.. Most Germans were clueless about them and never knew what hit them. This ignorance cost them their lives..
Captain Jack Rothschild, 776th TD Battalion, examines the wreckage of the first Hunting Tiger ever destroyed on the Western Front, killed by the crew led by Lieutenant John C. Britz. Near Rimling, January 1945. (NA)
776th Tank Destroyer Battalion Combat History
One photo is worth, as we say 1000 words..you can also check out the 90mm M4 Sherman in photo #2
776th TD Battalion Slugger, displaying its powerful 90mm main gun. (Informal History of the 776th TD Battalion) -Obviously a Sherman
and I am unaware of any American 90mm 'Howitzer'.... //?
maybe you mean the 105 mm Howitzer, which could consistently penetrate a Panther at 600 yards...
check the links..
U.S. Test No.2
U.S. Test No.3
I have seen these documents elsewhere, but these are handy at the moment..
Anyway, my favorite is the Sherman Jumbo with the 140 mm thick armor and the 90mm gun.. Most Germans were clueless about them and never knew what hit them. This ignorance cost them their lives..
Pather tests
U.S. Test No.2
8) 90mm Gun, M1A1, AA
AP M77 will penetrate front glacis slope plate up to 600 yards, the gun mantlet up to 1,000 yards and the turret up to 1,500 yards.
9) 105mm Howitzer, M4, mounted on Medium Tank, M4
HEAT M67 will penetrate front glacis slope plate and gun mantlet at 500 yards (see assumption made in paragraph 1c).
U.S. Test No.2
8) 90mm Gun, M1A1, AA
AP M77 will penetrate front glacis slope plate up to 600 yards, the gun mantlet up to 1,000 yards and the turret up to 1,500 yards.
9) 105mm Howitzer, M4, mounted on Medium Tank, M4
HEAT M67 will penetrate front glacis slope plate and gun mantlet at 500 yards (see assumption made in paragraph 1c).
Favorite does not mean the best...
Sherman was far from it and that is fact. The Sherman won the war though because it was easy to build, superior numbers and superior tactics.
Jackson, that is not a Sherman with a 90mm gun - its a M36 Jackson.
Also the sites photo description of the destroyed JagTiger is wrong, it was NOT destroyed by AT fire, it fell victim to artillery fire - the 776th armored TD battalion found it later as it looks on the picture.
Btw, by U.S. definition only 50% of the projectile has to penetrate to the other side of the test-plate (AKA a partial penetration) for the result to be considered a full penetration. By contrast the German definition of a full penetration is 100% of the projectile passing straight through the armor, thus a 100% penetration.
Also the sites photo description of the destroyed JagTiger is wrong, it was NOT destroyed by AT fire, it fell victim to artillery fire - the 776th armored TD battalion found it later as it looks on the picture.
Btw, by U.S. definition only 50% of the projectile has to penetrate to the other side of the test-plate (AKA a partial penetration) for the result to be considered a full penetration. By contrast the German definition of a full penetration is 100% of the projectile passing straight through the armor, thus a 100% penetration.
I suppose I like the M4 Jumbo, because I have met few Germans who have even ever heard of it and it fun to pull their legs about it. -you may dispute whether it was fitted with the 90mm...
I think it 'best' because the Germans thought they were dealing with something other than what it was.
Only a few hundred 90 MM Sherman field modification conversion kits were shipped between late summer '44 and spring '45..
First photo-
90 MM Sherman in Battle of the Bulge, (retro fit, no muzzle brake and the turret is definitely not the modified M-10 /90mm (M36) 'pyramid' variety)
see link:The Battle of the Bulge: Images
And yes, there were more US 90mm equipped AFV in the West than Tigers and Panthers of all sorts combined.
Another 'fun one' is the US 155 SP AFV..fitted with the Pozit (proximity fuse) elsewhere voted the deadliest vehicle on any battlefield.
This is what stopped Piefer at LeGlieze
The Battle 21-25 Dec
Many fine photos etc in this link
Although Huge Cole, in writing the official US Army history of the battle discounts this as over hyped..
But other books, like 'A Time for Trumpets" McDonald dispute Cole.
Patton, considered a historian in his own right, would not talk to Cole, he considered him an idiot.
Chapter 25-THE ARDENNES: BATTLE OF THE BULGE
Two battalions in the VIII Corps artillery had been issued some rounds of VT ammunition, but so far as can be determined none were fired on the first day of the German attack. Actually this highly secret ammunition was employed on only a few occasions prior to the Allied counterattack in early January, and then usually at night or in poor weather when the American gunners could not get sensing for normal time fire missions. The postwar claims as to the value of the much touted [655] VT fuse in halting the German advance are grossly exaggerated. (1/4 down the page)
This on line book is fairly decent reading and fairly accurate with plenty of post battle / post war interviews.. and it is free.
>You cannot always trust some accounts, Fritz Bayerlien in "Breakout and Pursuit" (Cobra) accounts for more losses than the official Wehrmacht records for instance.
The European Theater of Operations - U.S. Army Center of Military History
More on the SP 155
Aachen, used to hunt snipers..
http://cpof.ida.org/MOUT-Aachen-1944.pdf
Urban Operations - An Historical Casebook
The Siegfried Line Campaign: Chapter 13
With the concrete busting (delayed) fuse it was used to blow through 5-6 houses, then it could destroy a Panther at the end of a row (block) of town houses. (Koln)
(The surrendered German commander complained bitterly about such tactics..)
Many Germans also seem unaware of this vehicle and the direct fire effect of its 50kg round on a tank. Its range was approximately 30-40 Km. (18-24 miles) and yes it could kill a Tiger at more than 100 meters..(or 20,000 meters like at Le Glieze)
The vehicle also used the 8 inch (203mm) naval cannon and the M40 was fitted both ways and if supported by a platoon, it was very effective in all roles.
from link
Daniel brought up his attached 155mm self-propelled gun for the purpose. To protect it, he ordered tank destroyers to fire into the intervening cross streets. To protect the tank destroyers, infantry secured the buildings within panzerfaust range of the armor. Once in place, the 155 utterly demolished the "pillbox," which later proved to be a camouflaged tank.[36]
The 2/26 continued its methodical advance on 17 and 18 October (see Map 6). The 1106th Engineer Group continued to displace forward to cover the battalion's flank. As it advanced, the 2/26's front widened. The 1st Infantry Division attached Company C (1/26 Infantry) to Daniel's command, where it assumed responsibility for a zone on the right flank.[37]
During this period, the 2/26 found itself taking fire from the rear, despite all its precautions to assure that no Germans were bypassed. After a careful search, the Americans discovered that the fire was coming from a church steeple that had been reinforced with concrete, making it a fortified observation post. This position proved to be impervious to both small arms and 75mm tank destroyer fire, whereupon Daniel again called upon his 155mm artillery piece. One shot from the 155 brought the entire structure crashing to the ground.[38] This use of a 155mm gun as an anti-sniper weapon is perhaps the epitome of "Knock 'em all down."
You can google "Aachen 155 mm Daniel" for more..
I think it 'best' because the Germans thought they were dealing with something other than what it was.
Only a few hundred 90 MM Sherman field modification conversion kits were shipped between late summer '44 and spring '45..
First photo-
90 MM Sherman in Battle of the Bulge, (retro fit, no muzzle brake and the turret is definitely not the modified M-10 /90mm (M36) 'pyramid' variety)
see link:The Battle of the Bulge: Images
And yes, there were more US 90mm equipped AFV in the West than Tigers and Panthers of all sorts combined.
Another 'fun one' is the US 155 SP AFV..fitted with the Pozit (proximity fuse) elsewhere voted the deadliest vehicle on any battlefield.
This is what stopped Piefer at LeGlieze
The Battle 21-25 Dec
Many fine photos etc in this link
Although Huge Cole, in writing the official US Army history of the battle discounts this as over hyped..
But other books, like 'A Time for Trumpets" McDonald dispute Cole.
Patton, considered a historian in his own right, would not talk to Cole, he considered him an idiot.
Chapter 25-THE ARDENNES: BATTLE OF THE BULGE
Two battalions in the VIII Corps artillery had been issued some rounds of VT ammunition, but so far as can be determined none were fired on the first day of the German attack. Actually this highly secret ammunition was employed on only a few occasions prior to the Allied counterattack in early January, and then usually at night or in poor weather when the American gunners could not get sensing for normal time fire missions. The postwar claims as to the value of the much touted [655] VT fuse in halting the German advance are grossly exaggerated. (1/4 down the page)
This on line book is fairly decent reading and fairly accurate with plenty of post battle / post war interviews.. and it is free.
>You cannot always trust some accounts, Fritz Bayerlien in "Breakout and Pursuit" (Cobra) accounts for more losses than the official Wehrmacht records for instance.
The European Theater of Operations - U.S. Army Center of Military History
More on the SP 155
Aachen, used to hunt snipers..
http://cpof.ida.org/MOUT-Aachen-1944.pdf
Urban Operations - An Historical Casebook
The Siegfried Line Campaign: Chapter 13
With the concrete busting (delayed) fuse it was used to blow through 5-6 houses, then it could destroy a Panther at the end of a row (block) of town houses. (Koln)
(The surrendered German commander complained bitterly about such tactics..)
Many Germans also seem unaware of this vehicle and the direct fire effect of its 50kg round on a tank. Its range was approximately 30-40 Km. (18-24 miles) and yes it could kill a Tiger at more than 100 meters..(or 20,000 meters like at Le Glieze)
The vehicle also used the 8 inch (203mm) naval cannon and the M40 was fitted both ways and if supported by a platoon, it was very effective in all roles.
from link
Daniel brought up his attached 155mm self-propelled gun for the purpose. To protect it, he ordered tank destroyers to fire into the intervening cross streets. To protect the tank destroyers, infantry secured the buildings within panzerfaust range of the armor. Once in place, the 155 utterly demolished the "pillbox," which later proved to be a camouflaged tank.[36]
The 2/26 continued its methodical advance on 17 and 18 October (see Map 6). The 1106th Engineer Group continued to displace forward to cover the battalion's flank. As it advanced, the 2/26's front widened. The 1st Infantry Division attached Company C (1/26 Infantry) to Daniel's command, where it assumed responsibility for a zone on the right flank.[37]
During this period, the 2/26 found itself taking fire from the rear, despite all its precautions to assure that no Germans were bypassed. After a careful search, the Americans discovered that the fire was coming from a church steeple that had been reinforced with concrete, making it a fortified observation post. This position proved to be impervious to both small arms and 75mm tank destroyer fire, whereupon Daniel again called upon his 155mm artillery piece. One shot from the 155 brought the entire structure crashing to the ground.[38] This use of a 155mm gun as an anti-sniper weapon is perhaps the epitome of "Knock 'em all down."
You can google "Aachen 155 mm Daniel" for more..
the gun test results speak for themselves, this was not Aberdeen..
please read the test results-, we are not talking what the "US Army" did, we are talking about a bunch of colonels and sargent's, This was a bunch of tank guys in Normandy ..
M40
M40 GMC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
please read the test results-, we are not talking what the "US Army" did, we are talking about a bunch of colonels and sargent's, This was a bunch of tank guys in Normandy ..
M40
M40 GMC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
maybe this will help you to identify both types..
Sherman Register - Sherman encyclopedia > Iran
Iranian M36's of both varieties..
http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/images/iran_m36_tikrit_4.jpg
http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/images/iran_m36_tikrit_5.jpg
Geoff Walden took pictures of several Sherman-type vehicles in the Iraqi military base on Highway 1, about 10 miles north of Tikrit. This must have been another base than the one filmed by the CNN crew.
The M36B1 (top) was seen alongside the road, among several other vehicles that had been lined up to plug a gap in the perimeter fence. The M36 (bottom) was seen at a distance, off of Highway 1. Possibly these two vehicles were recently on the empty plinths that are at the base entrance nearby.
other
M36B1 90 mm M4A3
Results 1 - 10 of about 1,270 for M36B1 90mm M4A3 . (0.39 seconds
M36B1 90mm M4A3 - Google Search
US Library of Congress
Table of contents for American armored fighting vehicles
here is alink to the US Tank Destoyer home page..
the vehicle shown in their banner, most likely did exist and was used..
or at least, I would like to assume so..
Note the lack of a muzzle brake..
http://www.tankdestroyersociety.com/images/mm36b.GIF
m36.gif
and it appears to me, as an M4A3 "Jumbo" with the field conversion kit.
Smilarly
On page 42 of the Squadron book "US Tank Destroyers in Action," and on page 62 of the Concord book "US Tank Destroyers in Combat 1941-1945" is the same head-on photo of an M36B1 in what looks like a forward area. It is identified as being with the 654th TD Bn in support of the 35th Division, Ninth Army. Also noted are 4 victory markings (Nazi flags) on the mantlet representing 2 Pz IV and 2 Tiger tanks knocked out (!).
Sherman Register - Sherman encyclopedia > Iran
Iranian M36's of both varieties..
http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/images/iran_m36_tikrit_4.jpg
http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/images/iran_m36_tikrit_5.jpg
Geoff Walden took pictures of several Sherman-type vehicles in the Iraqi military base on Highway 1, about 10 miles north of Tikrit. This must have been another base than the one filmed by the CNN crew.
The M36B1 (top) was seen alongside the road, among several other vehicles that had been lined up to plug a gap in the perimeter fence. The M36 (bottom) was seen at a distance, off of Highway 1. Possibly these two vehicles were recently on the empty plinths that are at the base entrance nearby.
other
M36B1 90 mm M4A3
Results 1 - 10 of about 1,270 for M36B1 90mm M4A3 . (0.39 seconds
M36B1 90mm M4A3 - Google Search
US Library of Congress
Table of contents for American armored fighting vehicles
here is alink to the US Tank Destoyer home page..
the vehicle shown in their banner, most likely did exist and was used..
or at least, I would like to assume so..
Note the lack of a muzzle brake..
http://www.tankdestroyersociety.com/images/mm36b.GIF
m36.gif
and it appears to me, as an M4A3 "Jumbo" with the field conversion kit.
Smilarly
On page 42 of the Squadron book "US Tank Destroyers in Action," and on page 62 of the Concord book "US Tank Destroyers in Combat 1941-1945" is the same head-on photo of an M36B1 in what looks like a forward area. It is identified as being with the 654th TD Bn in support of the 35th Division, Ninth Army. Also noted are 4 victory markings (Nazi flags) on the mantlet representing 2 Pz IV and 2 Tiger tanks knocked out (!).
