Best Fighter III

JonJGoldberg · Dec 18, 2005

...Now who's gotta lighten up?

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Dec 19, 2005

If you are referring to me, I dont need to lighten up....

JonJGoldberg · Jan 31, 2006

...Are the tables correct? Is it the Me-262 best, followed by the P-47N? Are the best fighters of WW2 to be found in Germany the USA? How many think the tables should be amended to show low med high altitudes? Should the gun tables be amended? Is it not about the tables?

Twitch · Feb 5, 2006

Well since my 2¢ is as good as any one's here is my reasoning for one particular plane. Note it has nothing to do with ultimate performance or weapons or total kills. It was instrumental in turning the air war around-

P-51
There are other famous WW II America fighters like the P-40 of the Flying Tigers. Some will say the P-47 Thunderbolt should make the list and there are no Navy planes either. But the true turning point of WW II came with the debut of the P-51 Mustang in that its long-range escort ability saved the Allied bomber offensive from obliteration. As things were going about the time of the Schweinfurt Raids in mid-to-late 1943, the US was seriously considering ceasing large daylight bombing operations due to extensive losses.

P-51s truly brought the war to Germany like the bomber alone could not do. Before it the Luftwaffe knew exactly when the P-47s and or Spitfires had to turn back and were waiting to intercept the bombers. As mentioned, losses were high. The Mustangs were able to tag along to any European or Pacific target, no matter how distant, giving the protection of their guns to their "Big Friends" as they stuck close. Once the tide was turning the P-51s were unleashed to pursue enemy fighters on any terms encountered.

Mustangs were as maneuverable or more so than FW 190s or Bf 109s they met in most circumstances. While the Bs and Cs had four .50s with a total of 1,260 rounds, the D and later models had six guns with 1,880 rounds of API- armor-piercing incendiary ammo. Plus with the Merlin that replaced the original Allison V-12, the planes were faster with a 437-MPH top speed than most German planes but for a handful. The late-war P-51H seen in the closing stages of the Pacific could manage 487 MPH.

After WW II they served in Air National Guard units and bore much of the ground attack war in Korea. Many saw use in small air forces around the world and some were even revamped in the 1980s for counter insurgency roles. All models' production totaled around 14,000 aircraft.

syscom3 · Feb 5, 2006

Just out of curiosity, was the Mustang a difficult plane to learn to fly and dogfight? It seems from this discussion that it could be quite a difficult plane to handle if you got out of its envelope.

Plus its peak performance band was narrow, and that meant you needed top notch pilots with considerable air time to instinctively know how to keep it within that band of performance.

JonJGoldberg · Feb 5, 2006

Hello welcome Twitch. Your posting brought a to my face. When I joined, I posted something similar, heck almost exactly this. My view has grown. Welcome!!! I for one admire your position, invite you to read back...

wmaxt · Feb 6, 2006

Twitch said:
Well since my 2¢ is as good as any one's here is my reasoning for one particular plane. Note it has nothing to do with ultimate performance or weapons or total kills. It was instrumental in turning the air war around-

P-51
But the true turning point of WW II came with the debut of the P-51 Mustang in that its long-range escort ability saved the Allied bomber offensive from obliteration. As things were going about the time of the Schweinfurt Raids in mid-to-late 1943, the US was seriously considering ceasing large daylight bombing operations due to extensive losses.

.

First on Aug 25, 43 just after the First Schweinfurt raid P-38s flew a 1,000mi escort from Africa to Italy.
Second Long range escort in the ETO started in Nov 43 by P-38s - the first P-51 escort was late December 43.
Third P-51s did not reach 50/50 with the P-38s until late May 44, all through the first part of 44 when the odds were up to 10 to 1 and experiance in favor of the German defenders the P-38s were carring 50% or more of the load. Without the P-38s the bombing campain would have been interupted for at least 6-9 months.

Further The P-38 was the AAF fighter in the Med and the Pacific and took part in every major campain in both. The P-38 also split its efforts to include ground attack for roughly half its sorties. The P-51 was only really succesful in the ETO escort roll.

I recomend these articles in the Planes and Pilots of WWII web page under the heading Der Gableschwanze Tueful and the other P-38 and even the F4U-4 article. Also the other articals on the Flying Tigers and Republic Avaition that include the P-47 are not only great but revelent in comparing the P-51 and its abilities.
http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/index.html

The P-51 had its place, certainly, and made a great contrbution but it was not indispensable, and did not carry the air war on its own even in the ETO.

wmaxt

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Feb 10, 2006

Twitch said:
Mustangs were as maneuverable or more so than FW 190s or Bf 109s they met in most circumstances.

Most certainly not more maneuverable than a Fw-190 and in a one on one fight it was maybe only slightly better than a 109.

Twitch said:
the planes were faster with a 437-MPH top speed than most German planes but for a handful.

Lets see:

Ar-240C-0: 730km/h (454 mph)

Do-335: 413 mph (665 kph) sustained, 477 mph (765km/h) with emergency boost

Ta-152: 695km/h (431mph) at 10,500m (34,451 ft.)
750km/h (466mph) at 9,000m (29,529 ft.) with MW-50
760km/h (472mph) at 12,500m (41,012 ft.) with MW-50 and GM-1

Fw-190D: 440mph (704km/h)

He-162: 30 Second Thrust Rating
553 mph (890 kph) at sea level
562 mph (905 kph) at 19,690 ft (6,000m)
525 mph (845 kph) at 36,090 ft (11,000m)

At normal maximum thrust
491 mph (790 kph) at sea level
521 mph (838 kph) at 19,690 ft (6,000m)
475 mph (765 kph) at 36,090 ft (11,000m)

Bf-109K-4: 452 mph at 19,685 ft.

Me-163: 452 mph at 19,685 ft.

Me-262: 540mph (870km/h)

Ho-229: 607mph (977km/h)

Thats more than a handful to me, and that is just the fighters and destroyers.

The main advantages of the P-51 were the fact that it could take the fight to the Germans and the fact that it had numerical superiority. 150 P-51s vs. 20 Fw-190s, who do you think is going to win? The P-51 was not the most maneuverable and not the best fighter. It was a great escort fighter and probably the best at that role.

FLYBOYJ · Feb 10, 2006

Great Info Adler!!

lesofprimus · Feb 10, 2006

And a great way of making a point.... Cheers....

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Feb 10, 2006

Besides max speed is not everything when it comes to being a fighter. You have to out turn your opponant and get an advantage on him.

lesofprimus · Feb 10, 2006

I will say this though, the ability to accelerate when ur opponent is slowing down is extremely important in combat... It all revolves around that great statistic, thrust to weight ratio...

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Feb 10, 2006

Yeap that is true however.

Twitch · Feb 15, 2006

Throwing a bunch of book statistics has no weight in the real world. Lots of planes that were better on paper got flamed in the real world. Most of the planes listed with greater top speeds were never met in combat and even the vaunted 262 could be killed under the right circumstances by Spitfire and Mustangs alike.(not just rat catching sorties either) Top speed has almost nothing to do with actual kill ratios. Top speed of the Mustang was quite adequate and that is sufficient as is. How many of the German planes listed could fly from Berlin to Debden, go up against the local home boys on equal terms and fly home again?

And there are way too many instances of combats that took place one on one between 190s, 109s and P-51 where the P-51s matched them in every way and emerged victorious. And even so turn rate is not the end all since every ace out there on all sides overwhelmingly mostly made single firing passes to kill enemies than to get into roundy-round dogfights. By the time the Mustang hit the bomberstream air combat had nothing to do with that. You know that!

The P-51 had the biggest effect on the course of the war after they were introduced than any fighter before it. The P-38 simply did not excell in the ETO. Frankly it was a fair weather bird. It could escort long distances but didn't dominate the air combats it was in. There's nothing wrong with saying there were later lots of Mustangs. At one time 109s existed in larger number compared to their opponents. So? Initially there weren't hordes of P-51s though but they functioned quite well simply being over Berlin with the Big Friends.

It is the way the vast majority of people delving into history see the P-51 as the icon of change in the airwar against the Luftwaffe. Sure we know about Gabby, Johnson and Zemke in P-47s and we know their frustration of limitations. There weren't enough P-38s available to ride herd on the bomber stream.

The P-51 was the 1st fighter to fly for hours escorting heavies to the target, be able to engage anything the Luftwaffe threw at it and not be embarrassed by lack of performance or weaponry, fly home and beat up target of opportunity along the way on a regular basis in growing numbers.

The Luftwaffe pilots all pretty much acknowledge the P-51 as the best enemy fighter. Most aces scores just took off when they got the Mustang. The P-51 went to the Pacific and did just as well against another enemy. P-47s and P-38 did NOT excell in all theaters as did the Mustang.

To go one step further I'd say to be fair the Zero and the Bf 109 are respectively the best of the war as well, no matter that there were faster of more heavily armed or whatever that allegedly replaced them.

syscom3 · Feb 15, 2006

The P38 was holding up fairly well when it was the only long range fighter available in the ETO. Untill there was a change in tactics, all 8th AF fighters were held close to the bombers and not allowed ot go "hunting". That kept its kills low.

The P51 was a late comer to the PTO. Very few kills were achieved by this plane simply because the P38's and Hellcats had already swept the skies.

Are you serious about the Zero? Good plane for most of 1942, but far far far outclassed by 1944.

Hunter368 · Feb 15, 2006

Twitch said:
Throwing a bunch of book statistics has no weight in the real world. Lots of planes that were better on paper got flamed in the real world. Most of the planes listed with greater top speeds were never met in combat and even the vaunted 262 could be killed under the right circumstances by Spitfire and Mustangs alike.(not just rat catching sorties either) Top speed has almost nothing to do with actual kill ratios. Top speed of the Mustang was quite adequate and that is sufficient as is. How many of the German planes listed could fly from Berlin to Debden, go up against the local home boys on equal terms and fly home again?

And there are way too many instances of combats that took place one on one between 190s, 109s and P-51 where the P-51s matched them in every way and emerged victorious. And even so turn rate is not the end all since every ace out there on all sides overwhelmingly mostly made single firing passes to kill enemies than to get into roundy-round dogfights. By the time the Mustang hit the bomberstream air combat had nothing to do with that. You know that!

The P-51 had the biggest effect on the course of the war after they were introduced than any fighter before it. The P-38 simply did not excell in the ETO. Frankly it was a fair weather bird. It could escort long distances but didn't dominate the air combats it was in. There's nothing wrong with saying there were later lots of Mustangs. At one time 109s existed in larger number compared to their opponents. So? Initially there weren't hordes of P-51s though but they functioned quite well simply being over Berlin with the Big Friends.

It is the way the vast majority of people delving into history see the P-51 as the icon of change in the airwar against the Luftwaffe. Sure we know about Gabby, Johnson and Zemke in P-47s and we know their frustration of limitations. There weren't enough P-38s available to ride herd on the bomber stream.

The P-51 was the 1st fighter to fly for hours escorting heavies to the target, be able to engage anything the Luftwaffe threw at it and not be embarrassed by lack of performance or weaponry, fly home and beat up target of opportunity along the way on a regular basis in growing numbers.

The Luftwaffe pilots all pretty much acknowledge the P-51 as the best enemy fighter. Most aces scores just took off when they got the Mustang. The P-51 went to the Pacific and did just as well against another enemy. P-47s and P-38 did NOT excell in all theaters as did the Mustang.

To go one step further I'd say to be fair the Zero and the Bf 109 are respectively the best of the war as well, no matter that there were faster of more heavily armed or whatever that allegedly replaced them.

mmmm Where to start here. Stats like Adler said do count, what do they count for ? It proves what is a good plane and what is not a good plane. Can a great pilot fly a average plane and beat a average pilot in a great plane? yes. What the stats prove is facts, thats all Adler is saying. Facts are facts, they are not the end all be all, they are facts. No combat is total even, someone has a advantage. Some of those "facts" could help you out of that disadvantageous position you are in.

The ME262 being shot down by Spit or Stangs sure anyone could shot down in a head on pass, but any pilot would sooner fly a ME262 over either of the other two if everything was equal. Speed kills, 4 30mm guns kill. But you are right any lucky guy in a Spit or Stang could catch a 262 under the right conditions and shot it down, they just needed alittle luck.

P51 matching 109 and 190? sure it is a match. It would be a good fight, who ever was the better pilot or had the first advantage most likely would win.

You say the P51 having the biggest effect on the war, I agree. But not sure if for the same reasons as you. I believe that b/c they could take the war to Germany, before that they could not. P47 and Spit had to short of range. Also P51 was built in huge numbers and was a good plane but not the best ever, sheer numbers (and a decent plane by all standards and limitless trained pilots) meant the end for Germany (air war anyways).

LW aces agreeing that the P51 was the best fighter ? only b/c of its overall balance of assets, including its range that allowed it and its huge numbers to reach Germany anywhere. I have read alot on German pilots and I have felt they feared the P47 and Spit more than anything else. Spit b/c it was a great fighter flown by great pilots, P47 b/c of its speed, guns, and its so tough. Pilots kills started to grow fast not b/c of P51 being a better fighter, it was b/c of its range allowed it to meet more enemy planes. Before then German fighters just stayed out of range of the Spits and P47 when they could. With the P51 it could find the LW planes anywhere, thats why their kill totals grew faster. (not to mention the decreasing skill level of over all LW training and skill).

FLYBOYJ · Feb 15, 2006

Twitch said:
Throwing a bunch of book statistics has no weight in the real world. Lots of planes that were better on paper got flamed in the real world.

True, but its just about the only thing to consider when comparing these aircraft without looking at their historical combat histories...

There are those still around who could provide witness on how these aircraft flew but their numbers are dwindling. You could always rely on those who still operate one of these beasts, but you're only getting a half of story as they are in civilian hands and not operated in the role they were originally conceived in....

But is it is interesting to show what they could do on paper an analyze that against what was actually accomplished. That's what I find fascinating....

Henk · Feb 15, 2006

Well I think I will say DerAdlerIstGelandet your list are a great one of aircraft that are liable.

Twitch buddy I must say that the Fw-190 is in my eyes better that the Mustang in certan aspecs.

The problem wiht the P-51 is that the action that it saw in Europe are not something to talk a lot about, but I must say the P-51 did take the fight into Germany. It did great in the East.

I think that we must have a plane that must be the best fighter of WW2 that never actualy saw action but did fly. Also about the looks of the planes they can be judged about wich one looks the best and will be a great looking fighter.

Then we must have one of fighters that proved they were the best fighters by the combat the saw.

What do you think?

I think the, Fw-190, Ta-152 were great fighters.

IN the section of fighters that never saw action it must be the Do-335, He-162, Ho-229.

The Me-262 was a great fighter only it had its problems just like the Me-163.

So tell me what you think?

Henk

Twitch · Feb 16, 2006

The "best fighter" does not mean the best performance OK? It means it's effect on and place in history. That's why I choose the P-51. It was the catalyst that provided the resolve to continue daylight ops in the ETO. It was a better machine for the average pilot to excel in. It was on equal or better terms in any fight since the 190 and 109s that filled out the Luftwaffe's inventories were not dominant in every aspect such as they were compared to a P-40.

I'm sorry guys but the whole point is not comparing top speed specifications of prototypes that didn't meet P-51s. Is a P-51B/C's top speed of 439 at 25,000 feet blown away by a 190D-9s of 440MPH at 21,653 feet? (Most of the reference sources attribute 426MPH to the D-9 but that's irrelavent as is a small difference in top speeds.) That truly is meaningless and if you know the narratives of pilots on all sides you know that.

When I said it was eclipsed in speed by a "handful" the your top speed list proves that.

Arado 240- a few prototypes built, project terminated in 1942 well before it ever could have met the P-51

DO 335- again an scant few prototypes built that never saw action

Ta 152C/Ta 152H- 67 prototypes and pre-production aircraft ever built

FW 190D-9- Enough entered service to be valid at 1,805

Bf 109K-4 great plane, debuted in January 1945, more were lost to bombers than fighters

He 162- a few arrived at a minute to midnite on the Luftwaffe clock had no known encounters with P-51s

He 163- Bomber interceptor 370 built, had few kills against bombers none against P-51s known.

Me 262- a great machine but too few too late

Go 229- 2 prototypes built!

While I will champion the German technology brilliance anytime. There are actually many more fast planes from the Luftwaffe arsenal. We could put the Bachem Natter at 621MPH on there along with the Ju 248 aka Me 263. But looking up stats in a book doesn't begin to tell the story. Top speeds do not automatically place a plane in a "best of" category.

Again it's not whether the 190D-9 had superior performance in some aspects or the 262 was far faster. The Mustang was instrumental, as I believe, in the historical aspect of a placement in history.

This is all opinion anyhow so it matters very little. Hey I'm not an enemy here.

Henk- let's start a thread about the advanced German designs and see how many we can profile.

FLYBOYJ · Feb 16, 2006

Twitch said:
The "best fighter" does not mean the best performance OK? It means it's effect on and place in history. That's why I choose the P-51. It was the catalyst that provided the resolve to continue daylight ops in the ETO. It was a better machine for the average pilot to excel in. It was on equal or better terms in any fight since the 190 and 109s that filled out the Luftwaffe's inventories were not dominant in every aspect such as they were compared to a P-40.

Good points Twitch, you'll find in earlier threads this has been mentioned in several ways - I think the P-51 was somewhat over rated technecally but it was the best over all fighter of WW2 - easily built and flown, it made great pilots from average pilots in a day when combat pilots were mass produced and there was little time for "specially training(a la P-38 ). In talking about slight speed advantages, I've flown simualted aerial combat against aircraft with a 20 MPH advantage and duirng the furball you rarely saw that exploited....

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