GregP
Major
Funny you should say that. The G.59 was an updated G.55 with a Merlin and a bubble canopy.
Wish granted.
Wish granted.
Best Italian Fighter of WWII
- Thread starter Acheron
- Start date
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There are several G.55 and MC.205 in museums all across the world but sadly no complete Re.2005 is left.
After the war, however, a complete Re.2002 was found in a barn (people seems to leave all sort of odd things in their barns... including luxury cars and airplanes!) but it languished unrestored for many years. Recently, however, it has been superbly restored and now it's on exhibit at the Vigna di Valle Museum in Italy (near Rome)
It bears a striking similarity with the Seversky/Republic P-43 but, considering that its designer had close ties with Curtiss and Seversky till 1937 (he came back to Italy in February 1938) it shouldn't be surprising.
After the war, however, a complete Re.2002 was found in a barn (people seems to leave all sort of odd things in their barns... including luxury cars and airplanes!) but it languished unrestored for many years. Recently, however, it has been superbly restored and now it's on exhibit at the Vigna di Valle Museum in Italy (near Rome)
It bears a striking similarity with the Seversky/Republic P-43 but, considering that its designer had close ties with Curtiss and Seversky till 1937 (he came back to Italy in February 1938) it shouldn't be surprising.
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Just Schmidt
Senior Airman
Somebody might indeed get a good laugh at me declaring one of the series 5 as the best, I simply don't feel qualified in that respect, they seem all to be pretty good and without very much difference in performance. Or rather, I think I've seen every one of them as the best performer as the numbers are all over the place according to source.And if we leave that out? Would make the thread more funIf you want, you can factor in ease/cheapness of production in comparison, though if you don't want, be my guest.
And as someone else stated downthread, there's even two Macchi 205's to choose from. From memory the Germans preferred the Fiat, but are we sure to agree on their priorities? Had all three seen extensive service, we might still not reach a consensus, but we could have a richer argument. Not that I have anything against the thread and that some attempt the comparison, after all i did both to read and reply.
- Thread starter
- #24
Another point for wikipedia, they at usually try to give citations, often to individual statements, too.
You are on the internet. Qualifications are even more optional than respect.
GregP
Major
The Germans preferred the Fiat because the Macchi and the Reggiane were just too time-consuming to build economically. Practically, if they HAD to pick one, they'd choose the one that was easiest to manufacture since that was a top priority for them all during the war.
Don't get me wrong, they may STILL have chosen the G.55 if they were not looking at man-hours to build it, but I'm pretty sure the man-hours total was the real reason no Italian fighter was selected for German production since they was all much more time-consuming than a Bf 109.
Don't get me wrong, they may STILL have chosen the G.55 if they were not looking at man-hours to build it, but I'm pretty sure the man-hours total was the real reason no Italian fighter was selected for German production since they was all much more time-consuming than a Bf 109.
glennasher
Senior Airman
Those are fine-looking birds, if you ask me. Much better than their prior attempts, anyway.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
I haven't read about it in a long time, but as I recall, the Luftwaffe was very serious about building the G.56 and had the G.55 evaluated for improved manufacturing times and their evaluation stated they could considerably reduce the time to build the wing.
I don't recall the rest of the study, but the G.56 came very close to being a Luftwaffe fighter.
GregP
Major
Hi GrauGeist.
I recall that study, too. Can't recall the exact document, but I found it online somewhere a long time ago (6+ years ago anyway, maybe 10+ years ago).
As I recall, the article said the Germans could have reduced the time to manufacture the wing, but the fuselage was not so easy to change unless it was turned into a new airplane. The wing could have cut the time about in half, but the rest added up to slightly more than twice the time to build a Bf 109. So, being pragmatic, they WANTED the Fiat, but chose to continue with the Bf 109.
I seem to recall the timeframe they made that determination was late 1943 to early 1944, but I would not swear to it. It would be nice to find the article again and verify it.
The G.55 handily fixed several rather glaring faults the Bf 109 possessed, but trading two for one was not in the cards, at least to the RLM.
I recall that study, too. Can't recall the exact document, but I found it online somewhere a long time ago (6+ years ago anyway, maybe 10+ years ago).
As I recall, the article said the Germans could have reduced the time to manufacture the wing, but the fuselage was not so easy to change unless it was turned into a new airplane. The wing could have cut the time about in half, but the rest added up to slightly more than twice the time to build a Bf 109. So, being pragmatic, they WANTED the Fiat, but chose to continue with the Bf 109.
I seem to recall the timeframe they made that determination was late 1943 to early 1944, but I would not swear to it. It would be nice to find the article again and verify it.
The G.55 handily fixed several rather glaring faults the Bf 109 possessed, but trading two for one was not in the cards, at least to the RLM.
The Fiat G 56
If this aircraft were produced in Mid 1944, do you think it would've made a difference for the Axis powers in Europe?
ww2aircraft.net
Snautzer01
Honourably banned
- 42,908
- Mar 26, 2007
Notice G.591-b 2 seater.
Admiral Beez
Major
I agree. The Caproni-Vizzola F.5 got one. Presumably there was a lack of capacity to produce the bubble glass.
There's only one surviving G.55 in the world, it's at the Italian air force museum at Lago di Bracchiano. This one.
It's made of bits of different aircraft. There are only three MC.205s left, all of which are in Italy and all of which are based on MC.202 airframes incorporating '205 bits. This is the one at the Bracchiano museum.
The Fuerza Area Argentina received 10 overhauled and 35 new G.55 airframes, which remained in service until the mid 1950s, when the lot was sadly scrapped. Egypt received 39 G.55s and were delivered in 1948-1949, and Syria received 13, 12 single-seaters and one two-seater, all delivered in 1949. Despite the conflict in the region against the burgeoning state of Israel, it's not believed any of the G.55s were involved in combat, although they type was employed in border patrols in both countries' air forces. Strangely, one G.55 went to the UK and was evaluated, being inexplicably scrapped at Tangmere sometime in the 1950s.
Regarding production by the Germans, in April and May 1943 there were discussions between Fiat and the Germans, which resulted in an order for 500 examples, but the realisation that the G.55 required a higher number of man-hours to build compared to existing German types negated this, as well as the fall of Italy to the Allies. Although based on the G.55, the G.56 was an entirely new airframe and wasn't a converted example.
Nuuumannn,
I've been to Rome twice, and now I find out there is an AVIATION museum there!
On the Italian production front, if the Germans didn't order fighters due to man hour requirements, what did they "order" in their place?
Cheers,
Biff
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Pizza.
I've read that the G.55 took too many manhours to build compared to existing aircraft, the Fw 190 and Bf 109, this means a delay in fighter production and introduction into service, of course, which was not what the Germans really needed in 1943/44 by the time this gets into production and service owing to the war not really going their way. I guess the logic was that its performance was good but not sufficiently greater than existing Luftwaffe fighters, which, by early to mid 1944 begins to include the Me 262 and Me 163. I don't know if that was a consideration behind the Germans' logic for refusing to build the thing, but it kinda makes sense.
Well, I guess you're gonna have to go back again! The museum isn't in Rome, it's an hour by train north on the shore of the lake. If you wanna go, catch the train to Bracchiano and get a taxi from there to the museum. Conventional logic says to get off the train at Vigna di Valle, but don't do this. Go straight to Bracchiano, the number of trains from Rome is more frequent and there are always taxis outside the train station at Bracchiano, which is a lovely place at any rate.
Good to know! I understand why the Germans didn't order it, but what I don't understand was what was made in it's place (what did the workers make instead of fighters)?I've read that the G.55 took too many manhours to build compared to existing aircraft, the Fw 190 and Bf 109, this means a delay in fighter production and introduction into service, of course, which was not what the Germans really needed in 1943/44 by the time this gets into production and service owing to the war not really going their way. I guess the logic was that its performance was good but not sufficiently greater than existing Luftwaffe fighters, which, by early to mid 1944 begins to include the Me 262 and Me 163. I don't know if that was a consideration behind the Germans' logic for refusing to build the thing, but it kinda makes sense.
Well, I guess you're gonna have to go back again! The museum isn't in Rome, it's an hour by train north on the shore of the lake. If you wanna go, catch the train to Bracchiano and get a taxi from there to the museum. Conventional logic says to get off the train at Vigna di Valle, but don't do this. Go straight to Bracchiano, the number of trains from Rome is more frequent and there are always taxis outside the train station at Bracchiano, which is a lovely place at any rate.
special ed
2nd Lieutenant
- 5,654
- May 13, 2018
I have mentioned this before, but it is still funny to me. My friend and aviation nut went to Europe to visit the aviation museums. Lots of good photos from EK, France and Russia, but when he went to Italy on a Wednesday, the museum was closed and he could only look through the windows. His schedule did not allow a second day in Italy. It is still funny, as he was usually an excellent planner but never considered that the museum might be closed mid week.
Well, the Aeritalia factory in Turin was bombed by the Allies in April 1944, and after that production ceased. Before then G.55s was the main bread and butter of the factory at that time. Italian production rates compared to German were very slow, so combine that with the time period and production is limited. The Germans originally looked to the Aeritalia to build them for the Luftwaffe, but October 1943, Erhard Milch ordered that plans behind its production stop because of the fact that it took some 15,000 man hours to build, which was calculated to be three times more than a Bf 109. There were plans to install DB.603s in the remaining airframes that had been ordered but had not been delivered because of the Italian Armistice in September 1943. Following that time, production was slow to start, with the Germans in control of the Turin factory and G.55 production began again for the Italians. Kurt Tank went to Turin following testing of one at Rechlin, he was still keen on German use of the type as another attempt at getting them into Luftwaffe service but nothing further happened from that, despite a few examples, not including the G.56, being painted in Luftwaffe markings.
An odd situation existed for awhile where the Italian government was sympathetic to the Allies ordered more G.55s from the factory being controlled by the Germans in the north of the country, still sympathetic to the Axis...
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