Best modern dogfighting airforces

[Thorlifter]

Regarding modern air forces, I know very little about the capabilities of countries other than the U.S. As with most true plane vs plane dogfights, the outcome is often decided by which pilot gets the initial jump and not necessarily the best pilot.

But, all things considered, top to bottom, if we pretend missiles are barred from air combat, which countries have the best air combat fighter pilots and what planes would they use?

 

[Jenisch]

Modernized Mig-21s and F-5s sometimes do a good job against more modern fighters in exercises, in such a way that reminds me of the Finns in WWII with their B-239s against Yaks and other Soviet planes. I actually don't know nothing of air combat, but I have the impression that maybe sometimes people exaggerate in regard to disqualify pilot skill and tactics in contemporary air combat, as if they were "things of the past" when they may not be so.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Take away radar, BVR, close in knife fights, it would have to be Israel with special mention to India.

 

[eagledad]

Hello

I know of a former F-15C pilot who flew against various air forces in Europe. He found that the Dutch were the toughest opponents. They used tactics similar to the USAF, but had many more hours of in-flight training than the US. I don't think this pilot had an opportunity to fly against Israel or India.

Eagledad

 

[davebender]

That's quite a condition. For instance stealth advantage is largely nullified.

I like the F-5 option. Cheap and it can turn inside almost anything.

 

[BiffF15]

Davebender,

Stealth isn't nullified by changing the rules and making it a gun only fight. Stealth means you arrive at the fight with no warning, in a position of advantage (if you accomplished the correct intercept), and ready to employ.

I've heard nothing but great things about the Israeli's, however I don't know that I would give them the nod as being the best dogfighters. The two aircraft it would probably come down to are the Typhoon and the Raptor. I would have to vote for the home team in that event.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[Greyman]

I hate it when aircraft are given the same name as an already famous design.

 

[GregP]

Better than "Typhus!"

 

[wuzak]

The two aircraft it would probably come down to are the Typhoon and the Raptor. I would have to vote for the home team in that event.

What about the Su-35S (I think that is the right nomenclature) and Su-30MKI (the one Indians use)?

 

[eWildcat]

I like the F-5 option. Cheap and it can turn inside almost anything.

The F-5 is a great roller, but many modern fighters are better turners. It's definitely cheap though.

The two aircraft it would probably come down to are the Typhoon and the Raptor.

The Rafale is often forgotten, but it seems that at subsonic speed and low/medium altitude it can definitely hold its own against a Typhoon. At least that's what several Belgium F-16 pilots who fought against both Typhoons and Rafales told me.

(Unfortunately, because of the traditional British/French rivalry, I guess you can't trust any French of British pilot upon the matter. )

 

[GregP]

The Rafale is right in there with aerodynamics. It lacks stealth (ditto the Typhoon), but I am not up on the avionics suite installed in the Rafale versus the competition. I should be ...

Definitely a contender ... and the winner might well depend on the pilot and the starting positions. Anyone who dismisses the Rafale might get a very nasty surprise in real life ... of course, with wine sauce added to the flaming debris ... perhaps deglazed with Brandy.

I live in the USA and my last name is Pascal, so French jokes are OK ... they're done with good humor on my part anyway since it points squarely at me.

 

[davebender]

Max effective range of aircraft cannon is only about 1,000 meters. I doubt you can make an aircraft stealthy enough to get that close without detection.

 

[GrauGeist]

If all jets involved break down to an "OK corral" slugfest, then I would imagine the A-10 would be something for the opponent to be worried about.

Sure it's big and slow, but it can turn like a beast and if the driver is smart, he'll lure his opponent down into a low level turning fight.

 

[davebender]

And if your opponent is stupid. However if your opponent is that dumb then an AH-64 attack helicopter should work too.

 

[GregP]

In a close-range dogfight, I'd take the Apache any day.

 

[eWildcat]

If all jets involved break down to an "OK corral" slugfest, then I would imagine the A-10 would be something for the opponent to be worried about.

Sure it's big and slow, but it can turn like a beast and if the driver is smart, he'll lure his opponent down into a low level turning fight.

Well, it would be as good as a Ju-87 against Spitfires... Sure it can turn, but that's all it can do. Compared to a real fighter, it can't climb, it is slow, it accelerates poorly and it can only decently fight at low altitude.

 

[GregP]

On the other hand, if it gets you with even ONE depleted uranium bullet, you're toast. And if you want to kill it, you have to go down and GET it because the A-10 isn't going to be hunting F-15s or MiGs at 35,000 feet.

But if he's killing your ground troops and they yell for help, whatcha' gonna' do? Let 'em die?

 

[GrauGeist]

Well, it would be as good as a Ju-87 against Spitfires... Sure it can turn, but that's all it can do. Compared to a real fighter, it can't climb, it is slow, it accelerates poorly and it can only decently fight at low altitude.

And yet the SBD, which was much slower then contemporary fighters was able to turn and put up a serious fight.

The A-10 is heavily armored and can absorbe a tremendous amount of damage...and then there's it's cannon.

You think a 30mm minengeschoss round from a Mk108 was evil...

 

[Lucky13]

Depends, is it one v one, if not, it'll go to to fighters with the best information system, swapping Intel between them about targets....

 

[Denniss]

Most of the Stealth aircraft lose most of their stealthy features if detection comes from high above or if one picks up their heat signature.
Indeed, a DU bullet either makes your aircraft toast or radioactive.