Best modern dogfighting airforces
- Thread starter Thorlifter
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Donivanp
Captain
Hey Bill As far as the dogfight issue goes I would agree. An it was a news artificial and nuff said on that. As for the AC-130 I was joking, If you are fool enough to fly down the right side on an AC you deserve what you get. I am retired USAF avionics (INS/COMM/Nav) tech, when people ask if I flew I say Hell no I fixed them and I know better to go up in one. The Tomcat was retired for budget reasons, It cost to much to keep up and to upgrade and took up to much deck space. The AIM 54 was close to being usurped by the AIM-120 anyway as the 120 D is starting to get into the range of the 54 and weighs a lot less with less drag. You can carry it in preexisting AIM-7 wells so they could carry 6 and the AIM-9X as well. But the supper hornet can carry what 10 or 12 so it takes up less ramp, weighs less and can carry more int he Air to Air and was designed from the ground up as a multi role weapons platform, the Tomcat was designed to kill airplanes and had to be modded to drop bombs. The only thing I find wrong with the F-22 is the present administration and the fact they are cutting funds faster then they know what to do. To hell with the US militarily and to hell with the US vets. Forgive me everyone for the soap box, I'll get off it now.
Token
Senior Airman
The aircraft with the energy (altitude is energy) advantage will almost always dictate the fight, even when the lower energy fighter is aware of the threat.
T!
Token
Senior Airman
I realize the question asked / statement made was not fighter specific, but the F-14 was the only one on your list that was truly intended as an air superiority fighter. Yes, I know it was basically built around the Phoenix, and that missiles role was fleet defense from bombers, but the aircraft was still the Navy's primary air superiority fighter for many years.
It was good, but it was big, heavy, and a chore to maintain. The target set its primary weapon system (AWG-9 / Phoenix) was designed to counter was no longer a real threat. The Hornet could do most other roles with comparable ability. And the Tomcat just took up too much deck space. Good aircraft or not, when people thought with their brains instead of their guts/hearts it was a well thought out decision in a time of changing Naval power requirements.
Not an air superiority fighter. True, there is an air defense version, but still this aircrafts primary tasking is ground/surface attack, recce, and SEAD.
Not an air superiority fighter. Basically a very fast attack aircraft.
Supersonic bomber. This is one of the targets the AWG-9 / Phoenix was designed to kill. I had a run in with both the RDK and KD versions of this aircraft many moons ago.
And I think that is the key right there. Swing-wing was a gap filler, and was needed at the time. But as people went beyond that the forces that could afford to step away did so. But that is just my opinion. Sorry for the thread creep.
T!
In all fairness, the F-14 was a mission capable aircraft. And unfortunately, like the F-15, caught it's share of Hollywood's attention
F-14's production ceased in 1991 (though the U.S. Navy operated them until 2006)
It was good, but it was big, heavy, and a chore to maintain. The target set its primary weapon system (AWG-9 / Phoenix) was designed to counter was no longer a real threat. The Hornet could do most other roles with comparable ability. And the Tomcat just took up too much deck space. Good aircraft or not, when people thought with their brains instead of their guts/hearts it was a well thought out decision in a time of changing Naval power requirements.
Not an air superiority fighter. True, there is an air defense version, but still this aircrafts primary tasking is ground/surface attack, recce, and SEAD.
Not an air superiority fighter. Basically a very fast attack aircraft.
Supersonic bomber. This is one of the targets the AWG-9 / Phoenix was designed to kill. I had a run in with both the RDK and KD versions of this aircraft many moons ago.
And I think that is the key right there. Swing-wing was a gap filler, and was needed at the time. But as people went beyond that the forces that could afford to step away did so. But that is just my opinion. Sorry for the thread creep.
T!
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The comment I made regarding modern swingwings was in response to another's post regarding swingwing production.
I'm aware of what the types were.
I'm aware of what the types were.
wuzak
Captain
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Go back and read the original conversation between Biff and myself regarding swinwings...
wuzak
Captain
OK, so the MiG-23 wasn't in production at the time you were discussing.
Sorry, I misunderstood.
Sydhuey
Airman
A mate of mine who used to fly F-111's ( ex Black Hawk and Iroquois before the pig)did the empire test pilot school in the UK they had pilots from all over the world on the course and the jet they do most of there training in was the Hawk, they all got to do a certain amount of DAC and he said an Israeli pilot on the course cleaned up everyone on the course, he was an ex Fighter pilot with kills and when they were all in the same type of aircraft his ability and fwd thinking of what everyone else would do was well above everyone else on the course, though he said his navigation was crap as the Israeli pilot said once he took off in Israel from 40'000 feet he could see all of Israel so navigation was not high on the agenda. My mate said the one time he had the Israeli pilot stumped for a second was as he was an ex helo driver he went straight for the deck while most of the fast jet guy's tried to get height , he said it only worked once!
So I think it comes down to a combination of ability and aircraft type, most modern types are really all pretty similar what one has the advantage in one area another has it in something else, another mate who flies F/A-18's said below 20'000 he was happy to take on F-15's, you had a chance and didn't have a problem with F-16's in prolonged turning fights as the 16 bleed of power which the 18 could still pour on but in an initial turning fight he said the 16 turned quicker and above 20'000 the 15 had you, it chose when to kill you.
So I think it comes down to a combination of ability and aircraft type, most modern types are really all pretty similar what one has the advantage in one area another has it in something else, another mate who flies F/A-18's said below 20'000 he was happy to take on F-15's, you had a chance and didn't have a problem with F-16's in prolonged turning fights as the 16 bleed of power which the 18 could still pour on but in an initial turning fight he said the 16 turned quicker and above 20'000 the 15 had you, it chose when to kill you.
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Denniss,
I went TDY to Laage, GE as well as Key West to fight with them. World class group of guys, and the plane is very capable in a "with in visual rantge" (WVR) fight! Those pilots also flew more than most fighter pilots in the world, however it was only 15-25 minutes at a time...
It was great training as the MIG-29 is one of the most prolific threat aircraft US crews would ever fight. Good confidence booster to have fought your enemy before you fight your enemy... I'm sure that chapped Russias' nether regions...
Cheers,
Biff
I went TDY to Laage, GE as well as Key West to fight with them. World class group of guys, and the plane is very capable in a "with in visual rantge" (WVR) fight! Those pilots also flew more than most fighter pilots in the world, however it was only 15-25 minutes at a time...
It was great training as the MIG-29 is one of the most prolific threat aircraft US crews would ever fight. Good confidence booster to have fought your enemy before you fight your enemy... I'm sure that chapped Russias' nether regions...
Cheers,
Biff
Sydhuey,
If someone is trained in something very particular (say racing cars or flying air to air in a fighter), then those skills will probably transition well to other cars and planes. Not suprised he did well (the Israeli) since he had been through some intense training.
As for the F-18 versus either the F-15 or F-16, it's strength is not power but exceptional flight controls / maneuverablity in a slow speed fight. There is a lot to these fights, mostly driven by experience of the pilots and the configurations of the aircraft (external fuel tanks, ammo (540 pounds in an Eagle), number of training missiles / pylons / rails (all drag devices).
Cheers,
Biff
If someone is trained in something very particular (say racing cars or flying air to air in a fighter), then those skills will probably transition well to other cars and planes. Not suprised he did well (the Israeli) since he had been through some intense training.
As for the F-18 versus either the F-15 or F-16, it's strength is not power but exceptional flight controls / maneuverablity in a slow speed fight. There is a lot to these fights, mostly driven by experience of the pilots and the configurations of the aircraft (external fuel tanks, ammo (540 pounds in an Eagle), number of training missiles / pylons / rails (all drag devices).
Cheers,
Biff
Have/are the Soviets/Russians, um, acquired US aircraft and performed such adversary training?
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
I wonder if they borrowed an F-14 from Iran?
Don't know. I wouldn't doubt it. There are a few countries flying our stuff that could probably be motivated / convinced...
Cheers,
Biff
If they did they never made a Youtube video like every other Tomcat driver...
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Speaking of Iran...I guess their super-awesome stealth fighter, the Qahar -313 is so stealthy, no one ever sees it flying 
Speaking of Iran...I guess their super-awesome stealth fighter, the Qahar -313 is so stealthy, no one ever sees it flying
The Qahar -313 is just something to show to the folks.
Their real super-awesome stealth fighter is the ?(%%$@-*(*_+=@!
The name is forbidden to be spoken or appear in print as it is such a holy and powerful aircraft.
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