Best naval fighter II

[Lightning Guy]

I think the Ki-84 was better than the Shiden, faster, better climb, equal firepower, not sure about maneuverability comparison.

The Shiden was a fine fighter, but in failed to be what Japan was trying to produce . . . and interceptor. Rate of climb was unimpressive and high altitude performance was dismal.

The F2G was blazing at low altitude, but only achieved this at the sacrifice of range and high altitude ability. More conventional F4U-4s were nearly as fast on the deck and the F4U-5 was even faster. Both of these planes could easily out-run the F2G at medium to high altitudes.

 

[dead parrot]

Agree completely that it was a failure as a home defence interceptor--it just couldn't get at the bombers.

I've been trying to find info on Corsair VS Shiden encounters, but with not much luck so far. During the defence of a Japanese base, the 343rd group (Squadron of Experts) on March 19th apparently shot down a combined 48 Hellcats and Corsairs plus 4 Helldivers, with 5 more US planes down to base flak. Losses for the Japanese were 13-16(?) planes.

 

[toffi]

Shiden vs. Corsair

On 19th March 1945 301. Hikotai (1st and 3rd squadron) commanded by Cpt. (I'm not sure if Polish rank kpt. is the same as Cpt. in English) Naoshi Kanno attacked over Kure 15 Corsairs of VMF-123. In first attack two F4U-1D flown by Lt. Woostere and Ens. Russel were downed. Than Shiden Kais of 301. Hikotai went into circular dogfight with Corsairs. In effect one of Corsairs had to land on water on its' route back to carrier and three more were almost shot apart so they had to be thrown into the sea after landing. More five F4U were severely damaged. Though Marines reported 9 kills, none of the Shidens were downed. Only three of them were damaged (Cpt. Kannos' Shiden was amongst them).
While main forces of 301. Hikotai were engaged over Kure, 2nd squadron commanded by Lt. Isaburo Inoue met about 10 F4U-1D of VBF-10 from USS Intrepid pretending to attack Kure base. Although Japanese concentrated on a pair of Corsairs flown by Cpt. Hill and Ens. Erickson, they have lost two Shidens with Bos. Kubo and Sm. Izawa without succes.

More about encounters Shiden vs. Corsairs soon.

 

[dead parrot]

Nice info toffi, thank you. That is indeed the engagement I'd read about.

...Cpt. (I'm not sure if Polish rank kpt. is the same as Cpt. in English) Naoshi Kanno...

Yeah, his rank was "Taii" in Japanese, which is usually translated as Captain.

 

[toffi]

Shiden vs. Corsair part 2

On 10th April 1945 301. Hikotai arrived at Kanoya. First action 301. saw on 12nd April - sweep over Anami Shoto isles before operation Kikusui 2. 44 Shidens Kais were supposed to participate, but 10 of them weren't able to put themselves into air. Mostly it was caused by bad quality fuel which wasn't "liked" by Homare 21 engines. On the way to mission objective one of Shidens stayed behind the formation because of engine problems (bad fuel again). And this Shiden flown by bos. Sugitaki was first to be attacked by numerous Corsairs. After long dogfight Sugitaki managed to slip away with his heavily damaged Shiden.

On 2nd June 1945 21 N1K2-J commanded by Cpt. Hayashi surprised over Kagoshima 16 F4U-1 of VF-85 and VBF-85 (USS Shangri La). Pilots of 343. Kokutai shot down 5 Corsairs and one more severely damaged was thrown into the sea when came back to the carrier. The cost of this victory were two Shidens.
Next day 28 N1K1-J under command of Cpt. Kanno went into a dogfight with flight of reconaissance F6F-5 of VF-9 and over a dozen of F4U-1 of VFB-85. Three Corsairs were downed, as well as one Shiden.

On 22nd June 1945 343. Kokutai protected the last (10th) operation Kikusui. 31 of planned 50 N1K2-J took part in it. 19 Shiden Kais weren't able to fly. Japanese went into combat with about 20 F4U-1 of VMF-113. Result - 4 pilots including Cpt. Keijiro Hayashi lost their lives. Only two Corsairs were scored as killed, three more damaged.


That's all I managed to find about encounters between Shidens and Corsairs.

 

[dead parrot]

Great accounts--where did those come from? It's interesting about the engines. It seems that a lot of the later-war Japanese planes had problems with engines--they weren't bad, but they tended to be very tempremental and hard to maintain.

 

[toffi]

I took these info from periodical Nowa Technika Wojskowa.

Homare engine was one of the first Japanese engines that had almost 2000 HP. It was smaller, lighter and used less fuel than similar US engines. Unfortunately it was horribly complicated and hard to maintain. It required high technical culture form mechanics.
Homare 11 was driven into production a bit too early, when it still had many weaknesses of early period of development. Situation went better after introducing Homare 21. But then shortage of stock extorted usage of replacement materials what shortened its vitality.
Another problem was quality of fuel. At last addition of alcohol in fuel was so huge, that it not only shortened engines' vitality but also caused drop of combat capabilities. So the Homare engines did not achieved "catalogue" capabilities and very much depended on specimen of engine and the maintenance crew.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

now you see if they were diesil............................

 

[Lightning Guy]

They would have been even worse . . .

 

[plan_D]

From those encounters the Shiden seems to hold an edge. Although the Corsairs would have had a variety of skill level pilots, while the Shidens were all experts.

 

[Lightning Guy]

And those were early Corsairs, F4U-1Ds. The F4U-4 was a different animal all together. It would have been interesting seeing the Shiden take on VMF-214 or VF-17.

 

[plan_D]

Maybe but in those encounters the Shiden holds the edge. And by that it is obvious that the Corsair wasn't going to just destroy the Shiden with ease.

 

[Lightning Guy]

I never claimed it would. But I believe the Corsair was the better aircraft. Being the better aircraft doesn't mean you are going to mop the floor with the other guy.

 

[plan_D]

In the encounters the Shiden was on top of the Corsair though. There were only F4U-1Ds but it's still a Corsair.

 

[Lightning Guy]

And I was arguing for the F4U-4. Granted the F4U-1D would have enjoyed the same advantages the -4 did (speed, climb, dive) but not to the same extent. Furthermore, in the above examples, the kill-loss ratios were very close even with numerical advantages on the side of the Shiden plus the pilot quality which has already been mentioned.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i still believe that in a traditional dogfight the shiden would win...............

 

[Lightning Guy]

Probably. But by 1943 the Americans had learned not to dogfight with the Japanese in the traditional style. In a slashing, diving fight, the Corsair holds all the cards.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

however the shiden stands a better chance in a "slashing, diving fight" than a zero....................

 

[plan_D]

Then you've got to have the pilots in the Corsairs who know what they're doing, well. While in the Shiden you have average pilots. It wasn't like that though, the Shiden pilots were experts. So, it depends on pilot skill.

The Corsair would probably have an easier time if it was an average pilot though.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

but like you said, the shiden was given to the best the japs had..............