Best naval fighter II

[Lightning Guy]

You have to consider somethings about theses incidents.

Fact: the quality of the Japanese pilots had dropped incredibly by 1945. Thus, Allied pilots were often caught off guard when they did encounter good Japanese pilots.

Fact: the quality of the average American pilot had probably degraded some as the average American pilot was getting fewer chances to hone his skills.

There are several possible reasons why the Americans might not have avoided combat. They probably (as noted) underestimated the quality of the Japanese pilots. The circumstances of their missions may have prevented it. Note that several of these incidents involved VBF or VMF squadrons which were most likely flying stikre missions. The Corsairs may have been bounced. And the numerical superiority of the Shidens may have limited their ability to avoid combat (properly deployed they had the numbers to literally surround the Corsairs).

My point about the damaged Corsairs was this: it has been said that the 4 20mm cannons of the Shiden would totally rip a Corsair apart. Clearly this is not true. As far as single-engined fighters go, only the P-47 challenged the durability of the Corsair. It seems to me that the Corsair was less vulnerable to the 4 20mm of the Shiden than the Shiden was to the 6 .50cals of the Corsair.

 

[plan_D]

There's no evidence to back up that assumption on the Corsair against Shiden durability. That's a quite good excuse to make for the Corsair, they were caught off guard. And now, the average American pilot was getting poor. Come on, were the American pilots good or bad?

And the Corsairs ability to avoid combat has been blown out of the water then. As earlier I stated situations in which the Corsair couldn't avoid combat, which gives the Shiden the edge. Turns will always be needed, and the Shiden could turn tighter.

 

[Lightning Guy]

And if turning is all there is the Shiden should never have been shot down!

I think everyone would agree that seeing combat makes for a better pilot. The pilots assigned to fly in the Shiden were the very best Japan had. As the number of Japanese aircraft decreased and the number of Americans increased there were fewer chances for an American pilot to see air-to-air combat. Many American pilots flew completed whole tours without seeing so much as a single Japanese aircraft. The result was that you probably had the very best pilots the Japanese had against average American pilots. This proves nothing concerning the quality of the planes.

The tactical situation does not prove anything concerning the quality of aircraft either. P-40s had good success when they were bouncing Zeros, does that make them a better fighter?

Read the comments that Japanese pilots made during the war. In a slow, turning dogfight, there was little or anything that could hang with the Zero. Yet, Zero pilots primarily point to the superior performance of the Hellcat, Lightning, and Corsair as being the dominant factors. The Corsair maintained everyone of these advantages over the Shiden. It can maintain maneuvers longer because of it's power, it cannot be touched in the vertical regime, and gave a good account of itself when faced with better pilots in greater numbers.

 

[plan_D]

I never said there were only turns in a dogfight. The advantages held by the Corsair over the Zero were much reduced over the Shiden. If the Shiden and Zero were identical, it'd be pretty pointless.
If the Shiden was shooting down the Corsairs, it obviously was perfectly capable of achieving kills. The Corsairs can dive down on the Shiden, or run away from it with speed. Tactical combat.

 

[lesofprimus]

HMMMM... Id like to find out the differences between the flight characteristics of the Zero vs. the Shiden... If im not mistaken, the Zero could out turn the Shiden...

I dont think anyone is saying that the Shiden was not a capable aircraft in the kills department... However, only the best Jap pilots flew them...

If a marginal pilot, or a newbie rookie were behind the controls, I believe we wouldnt be having this conversation...

 

[plan_D]

I did say earlier that being a rookie would be better in a Corsair but a well-conditioned ace would be more suited to the Shiden.

 

[lesofprimus]

True Statement...

No comment on the Zero vs Shiden performance question???

 

[plan_D]

I know the Shiden was better armoured and armed. I think it was faster too.

 

[lesofprimus]

Faster yes... definatly... Armour and Armament are not performance issues...

But what about the other 5? flight characteristics that make up an aircraft performance???

I would assume that because it was heavier, that it could outdive the Zero... Climbing ability??? Probably would depend on the altitude and speed at moment of said climb...

 

[plan_D]

Well armour and armament are quite important in a dogfight. If you can't take a pounding, or dish out a pounding you're pretty pointless.

 

[lesofprimus]

I agree... Im asking about performance issues of the Zero vs the Shiden... Im gonna do some research on this...

 

[Lightning Guy]

The Shiden was faster than the Zero by about 20mph but was 70mph slower than the -4 Corsair. I believe the Zero had the Shiden beaten in the climb and in range. The Shiden probably held the advantage in a dive but I haven't seen anything on that.

 

[plan_D]

This is a major problem with the Shiden Vs. Corsair discussion. What is said about the -4 Corsair is not the same as -1D Corsair.

 

[lesofprimus]

And there are 2 different versions of the Shiden... The Kawanishi N1K1-J and the 2-J...

The -1J had major problems with the landing gear, and the limited visibilty on the ground problem.... Only 1,032 -1J's were produced, starting in 1943...

The F4U-1 series began production in June 1941, and the F4U-1D in April 1944... The F4U-4 began at the end of 1944... The horsepower went from 2,250 in the 1-D, to 2,485 hp in the -4... Not bad...

The only thing the N1K1-2 J retained from the -1J was the engine, the wing, and the armament of its predecessor, with productions starting in June 1944...

The fuselage and tail fins had been completely redesigned in order to allow the wing to be lowered from the middle of the fuselage farther down... This of couse made it possible to shorten and simplify the landing gear and consequently to improve overall visability on the ground...

A huge production run began in June 1944, but due to the continuous raids by American bombers, only 423 M1K2-J's came off the factory lines before the bombs were dropped and ended the war...

And like many other aircraft in the PTO, Many of the 2-J's were sacrificed in suicide attacks...

I believe the that the -1J would have had serious issues with a decent F4U1-D pilot with 3-8 kills under his belt, let alone one flying in a -4...

The -2J would have stood a much better chance of combattin the -1D, but were seriously in a bad situation against the F4U-4 (both with skilled pilots)...

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i think that the fact that the shiden was flown by the best the japs had gave it the edge in combat....................

 

[lesofprimus]

Ok... I think we got on the worng page here...

Lets use this as the platform for opinion...

2 pilots of identical talent, (5 kills worth)...
Neutral posistioning on attack...
Altitude 30,000 ft...
F4U-4 vs. N1K2-J

Something I would sacrifice my right testical to be a part of IRL...

The -4 comes out on top 7 outta 10 engagements...
The -4 was a much better designed, constructed, and utilized plane...

 

[Lightning Guy]

Above 30,000ft the Shiden would have been in trouble against a -1D Corsair as the Shiden had very poor performance at high altitude. When discussing the relative merits of the two AIRCRAFT pilots ought not be discussed as a good pilot can make a lousy airplane do some amazing things.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

but in saying that a pilot can only do what his aircraft will let him..................

 

[lesofprimus]

I agree LG...

Actually i believe anywhere over 26,000 the Shiden's performance dropped drastically...

 

[plan_D]

So above 26,000 feet the -1D is most likely going to come out on top. At 5000 feet, it's a different story though.