Best naval fighter II

[plan_D]

If I was a rookie I'd rather be in the Corsair. If I was a well conditioned pilot, with lots of experience I'd rather be in the Shiden.

 

[Lightning Guy]

There is a saying in air combat, "Speed is life." The Corsair had it. The Shiden didn't.

 

[plan_D]

The Shiden wasn't slow, just slower. If that saying accounted for everything, then whatever is fast is the best. The Me-163 Komet was the best fighter of the war then.

 

[lesofprimus]

If u took the best 10 F4U-4 pilots the PTO had to offer, and the 10 best Shiden pilots, put them all 1 vs. 1, the Corsairs would come out on top 70% of the time...

Pilots flew against the weaknesses of the other aircraft... They wouldnt dogfight a Zero the same way they would a Shiden...

The -4 was a much better and well rounded fighter than the Shiden...

Strap my ass into a Corsair...

 

[Lightning Guy]

The -4 Corsair was 70mph faster than the Shiden. That is a huge difference.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

They wouldnt dogfight a Zero the same way they would a Shinden...

but the shiden could outmanouver the corsair, and it was better armed.................

 

[toffi]

It indeed was better armed but had far less ammo.

 

[plan_D]

With higher calibre rounds though, it takes less to bring a plane down. Sure the Corsair could do it, but the better armament on the Shiden made up for less ammo.

Mix of cannon and machine gun is always the best though.

 

[lesofprimus]

Lanc... Are u saying that the Zero couldnt outmanouver the Corsair???

Plan D... Higher caliber rounds also travel alot slower...

And if a mix of cannon and machine guns is always best, how come the Corsair, the Hellcat, the Mustang, and the T-Bolt all have machine guns, and no cannons??? (generally speaking of course)

And a final question... Was the Shiden an all-metal constructed fighter???

 

[plan_D]

Just because those planes didn't have the best mix, it doesn't mean it's not the best mix. The Spitfire Mk. XIV was the best dogfighter of the war, with two 20mm and four .303. That would be better as .50cal though.

I think we all on here have realised that a mix of both is better. And the Mustang III had four 20mm cannons.

 

[Lightning Guy]

We are running circles on this thread. Yes the Shiden could outmaneuver the Corsair (at low speeds, I have my doubts at high speeds). But the Shiden couldn't stay with the Corsair in the vertical plane. That is actually pretty important in a dogfight. The Corsair could pull away in a straight climb or dive but was also superior in a climbing turn or diving turn. The Corsaid also the the advantage of being able to sustain maneuvers because of its greater power. Finally, the Corsair can choose to engage or disengage virtually whenever and wherever.

 

[plan_D]

However the encounters between the Corsair and Shiden were in the Shidens favour.

 

[Lightning Guy]

By a narrow margin. When the Shiden pilots were almost certainly of the highest quality. And they held significant numerical advantages. I don't think they prove anything.

 

[plan_D]

No they didn't hold significant numercial advantages. It says nothing of the sort, especially in the second encounter when it says 34 Shidens against numerous Corsairs, or whatever

 

[Lightning Guy]

A summary of the encounters based on the previous posts:

March 19, 1945 - '2 squadrons' of Shidens v. 15 Corsairs
- '1 squadron' of Shidens v. 10 Corsairs
April 10, 1945 - 33 Shidens v. 'numerous' Corsairs (very ambiguous)
June 2, 1945 - 21 Shidens v. 16 Corsairs
June 22, 1945 - 31 Shidens v. 20 Corsairs

In every incident where clear numbers are provided, the Shiden was enjoying an advantage of at least 25% (and may well have held the advantage on the April 10th incident).

Furthermore, it is interesting to note the number of Corsairs that returned damaged. The reason I point this out is that (contrary to what has been said before) the Shiden could not simply blow the Corsair out of the sky.

 

[lesofprimus]

Great points LG....

 

[plan_D]

You cannot assume the 10th April numbers, LG. The squadrons of Shidens, are we sure they are full strength?
On top of that, if the Shidens were holding a clear advantage. And the Corsairs were able to pick and choose their fights. Surely all those encounters should have been avoided by the Corsair pilots.

The damaged Corsairs were wrecked as they returned. Counting an aircraft lost for the USN. If you are trying to deny that the higher calibre round is not more destructive, then I can only laugh.

 

[lesofprimus]

You cannot assume the Corsairs were wrecked upon landing... And why would u assume that the Corsair pilots would avoid any combat from any fighter, odds in favor or against???

"Oh my, so many Shidens... Lets run for home ..."

NOT...

92.662% of all fighter pilots had that attitude of invincibility in the air.. If u didnt, u didnt live very long in a dogfight...

Shidens were not the only Jap fighter that fired high calibre rounds at the Corsair ...

The higher calibre round is definatly more destructive, but the Corsair could take a hell of alot of damage and still be put down on the ground intact, and repairable for another days sortie...

I saw a pic of a Corsair with almost half his left wing sheared off from a power line, and that plane was on the ground, intact... Also saw a pic of a Corsair wing that had a hole in it that u could have stuck ur whole body through...

 

[plan_D]

I'm not assuming the Corsairs were wrecked upon landing. It stated that one was ditched in the ocean, and the others damaged were wrecked.
Well in that case, the Corsairs ability to pick and choose its battles has no place in this discussion. Although a great fighter should know when to fight, and although the Corsair had the ability to pick it, if the pilot didn't then its pointless.

The Corsair could take a lot of damage, but the Shiden could cause a massive amount of damage with four 20mm cannons.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

and, while not as strong as the corsair, the shiden was no lightweight itself.......................