Best Naval Fighter
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lesofprimus
Brigadier General
No fair combining 2 threads like that....
A
Anonymous
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lesofprimus said:
Thanks... I think 8)
Seriously, if you study the Zero you will see it was totally outclassed by the Hellcat. Yes the top speed of the Hellcat is only about 30 mph faster than that of the Zero, but the fighting speed of the Hellcat is 100 mph faster, and that's what really matters. Combine with it's toughness advantage and firepower advantage, the Zero had very little chance as long as the Hellcat pilot did not make a mistake (ie: slow down and turnfight with the Zero).
Once the USA had the captured Zero to study, it's day was done and it's goose cooked.
After the tests on the "Akutan Zero", in Sept-Oct 1942, it's flaws were revield. Most notably, it rolled poorly much above 200 IAS, and it could not roll at all to the left at 225 IAS. While it could achieve speeds greater than this, it simply could not manuver. US pilots needed only roll and turn to the left to escape it if it was attacking. At the same time, when on the attack US pilots knew the only manuver the Zero could conduct at speed was a roll/turn to the right, so they could sit on this manuver greatly improving their chances to score.
http://www.warbirdforum.com/komachi2.htm <--- Japanese pilot's perspective.
The N1K2 Shinden was a naval fighter. It was capable of carrier ops. The fact that the Japanese never used it from carriers does not negate its capaiblity.
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cheddar cheese
Major General
plan_D said:
I think I may also hacve to go with the Corsair as well. Although the Zero may have been the best in the first few months it did become totally outclassed.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
The fact that it was never used in its intended roll as a NAVAL negates it from this poll RG..... Although I am one of the people that thinks that the N1K2 was probably the best PTO fighter in performance, for a plane to qualify as a naval fighter, it had to be operated in comabt conditions, ie carrier ops, which the Shiden certainly did not.....
Too bad it didnt.... Woulda made the dogfighting possibly alittle more even sided.....
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Anonymous
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plan_D said:
How do you figure? Both planes had quirks, the Corsair probably moreso of the two. Ever heard of the "ensign eliminator"?
The Corsair was just better however you want to compare them. In the Fighter Ace newsgroup we had a member who's Granfather was an IJN pilot, flying the Zero and then the George. He said "every night before a mission I would pray that we didn't run into Corsairs".
The F4U-1d had the advantage in speed, toughness, and performance at altitude. The Corsair was also better for ground attack (unless you look at the specially modified dive bomb Shiden version, but that added weight and reduced performance). In most other respects, they were about equal. The F4U-4 totally outclassed it (but of course it's a year later model).
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the lancaster kicks ass
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not when the shiden had 4x20mm..................
The reason I say that is because in the hands of a skilled pilot the Shiden was an effective fighting machine. It could out-turn the Corsair and was more heavily armed.
The Corsair was faster and had better dive, so for a rookie it's a brilliant aircraft. If in a tight spot stick the nose down, open the throttle and laugh at the Shiden you're leaving behind. The Shiden couldn't do that, so rookies were screwed.
The Corsair was faster and had better dive, so for a rookie it's a brilliant aircraft. If in a tight spot stick the nose down, open the throttle and laugh at the Shiden you're leaving behind. The Shiden couldn't do that, so rookies were screwed.
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the lancaster kicks ass
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but the japs gave all their shidens to their best pilots.............
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Anonymous
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the lancaster kicks ass said:
You are overcome by the size of the rounds I guess.
4 x 20mm Type 99-2 firing at 490 rpm = 1960 rpm = 32 rps @ 750 m/s
6 x .50 M2 BMG firing at 800 rpm = 4800 rpm = 80 rps @ 900 m/s
The Type 99-2 hit about 1.9 times as hard (by KE) as the .50, but the volume of fire is a huge issue, a pilot was much more likely to actually score hits with the 6 x .50's than with the 4 x 20mm's. The RoF of the Type 99-2 cannon on the George was slow enough that a target was very likely to fly through the stream w/o taking a hit on a high angle deflection shot. The same shot with 6 x .50's would land hits every time. The Type 99-2 probably carried about 8 grams of chemical payload, but the M8 API round was a devestating round from a chemical aspect as well.
The F4U was also considered "protected" from 20mm fire from the rear and from .50 fire from the front. The George on the other hand was easily taken down with .50 fire from any angle (remember, most Japanese pilots ripped the armor out of it when they got it, and its performance figures are generally based upon this configuration).
Everyone drools over the big cannon for some reason. These were necessary when facing a heavy bomber (ie: American in most cases), but for any targets attacked by the USA (ie: fighters or Japanese bombers), 6 x .50's were more than sufficient to kill quickly and efficiently, and much easier to score with.
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Anonymous
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plan_D said:
Many Corsairs sustained 20mm hits and returned home, I think I've read of one that took 20 such hits and a bunch of smaller rounds too. Remember, the Corsair was the toughest fighter of WWII! (yes, even tougher than the P-47).
On the other hand, 6 x .50's would rip a Shiden to shreads and light it on fire too. And they'd be much more likely to hit it in the first place!
You over-estimate the effectiveness of the Type 99-2 20mm cannon. It was not firing mine ammo like the German cannon, and it lacked the velocity and quality of ammo of the Hispano. And it's RoF was SLOW by WWII standards.
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The fact STILL remains that having a 20mm chunk of lead ripping into your wing is not a healthy prospect. I know that the Shiden could be ripped apart by 6x .50cals. That is why I say the Corsair is better. I am saying though the Shiden is ONLY good in the hands of experts...
cheddar cheese
Major General
Anyway the Shiden is irrelevant as it never operated from a carrier.
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the lancaster kicks ass
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but there was a carrier version planned...............
cheddar cheese
Major General
But it never actually operated...in my mind its not a proper naval fighter unless it operated from a carrier in proper combat situations.
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Anonymous
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plan_D said:
And having a 12.7 mm chunk ripped out of your wing is not bad?
The main advantage to the 20mm rounds is they are large enough to pack enough HE to be meaningful - barely.
On the other hand the .50 M8 API round was a very nasty round. It had IM11 incendiary metal alloy as it's payload (1.4 grams in WW2, reduced to .9 grams post WWII). IM11 is made by alloying approximately 25% Alluminum + 25% Magnesium + 50% Barium Nitrate. The Barium Nitrate is a very strong oxidizer and when the compound is crushed on impact it ignites generating a 5000 degree spall of burning metal. Behind the IM11 rides a tungston carbide penetrator sufficient to not only crush the IM11 but penetrate a good 19 mm of homogonous steel armor plate (the only kind used in Japanese fighters) on a perpendicular strike.
At the same time, the F4U had a 3/4" tempered steel plates protecting the pilot from rear attack, plus a armored seat bucket. It also had armor protecting the fuel tank from above and below, and the engine protecting it from the front. And the wings, aft of the main spar, were covered in a dupont canvass which would not rip or tear (like tyvex) and which was soaked in an flame retardant solution (later found to be very unhealthy for ground crews). 20mm rounds hitting this canvas would pass through and through and unless they struck an interior rib or something, they'd do no meaningful damage (which was the point behind the canvass covering). Likewise, the tail control surfaces were covered in the same canvas.
And the spar itself was absolutely huge (to support carrier landings) and was probably able to take a 20mm round, and even if it did suffer severe damage from a 20mm round, there were two sub-spars which provided more than 100% redundancy. Not only that, but the box within box design of the wing itself (the metal part) was so strong that no spar was needed at all except for carrier landings.
Overall, if you look at the Corsair design, there is a relatively small area starting with the pilot and extending to the engine which contains critical systems which are protected by armor from most angles of attack, and there are control surfaces which are of course vulnerable to damage, but most of these could be damaged and the plane could still get home.
The Corsair was an extremely tough plane, the toughest fighter of WWII by all accounts. As I said before, it was considered "protected" from 20mm fire from the rear and 12.7mm fire from the front. (No I don't have a definition of what "protected" was supposed to mean).
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Anonymous
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cheddar cheese said:
Well, I'm not 100% sure I agree. The Shiden was built as a carrier fighter. By the time it was ready to perform as such, the Japanese had no full sized carriers left. It could not operate effectively from a light carrier, so it never saw carrier operations. But in every respect it was designed as a carrier fighter and capable of operating off a carrier deck, it just needed a full size one because of the lack of good catapults on smaller Japanese carriers (and I think even on the bigger ones). It needed takeoff and landing room, where the Zero did not (it had a very short takeoff requirement).
Does the lack of suitable carriers make the Shiden not be a carrier plane? To me the issue is was it ever "carrier qualified", and I don't know the answer to this question.
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