Best Naval Fighter

[the lancaster kicks ass]

it was designed as a land based intorceptor??

 

[lesofprimus]

The Corsair was an extremely tough plane, the toughest fighter of WWII by all accounts.

I agree...

But i have conversed with several F4U pilots, one of which was on the Axis Test Flight Program, which tested out captured aircraft.... He said that the N1K2 was the best Japanese fighter he had flown in, and routinely beat the Corsair in mock combat...

Which is one of the reasons why I say it was a better dogfighter than the Corsair, which I rank #2, PTO..... The F4U-4D is #1 NAVAL fighter for sure tho.....

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

well if the shiden beat the corsiar in mock combat you can't argue with that..............

 

[lesofprimus]

Not from an American Ace's mouth.... As a side note, all the pilots under this testing/evaluation projest were qualified Aces with many hours of combat....

But then again, everyone has their own opinion on everything....

The big thing about the Japanese pilots fear of the Corsair was that it was very easy to dogfight, and was quite good, which made pilot quality not as important in some other fighters they faced.. An average, green American pilot could fight the Corsair VERY effectivly..... The average, green Japanese pilot in a Zero was at a very distinct disadvantage.....

And usually paid the price with his life.....

 

[Anonymous]

The Corsair was an extremely tough plane, the toughest fighter of WWII by all accounts.

I agree...

But i have conversed with several F4U pilots, one of which was on the Axis Test Flight Program, which tested out captured aircraft.... He said that the N1K2 was the best Japanese fighter he had flown in, and routinely beat the Corsair in mock combat...

Which is one of the reasons why I say it was a better dogfighter than the Corsair, which I rank #2, PTO..... The F4U-4D is #1 NAVAL fighter for sure tho.....

Which Corsair? And was the N1K2 stripped? Almost all Japanese were stripped of armor and guns for post-war tests. Furthermore, their engines were rebuilt, often using American fuel pumps and regulators, and sometimes primary components as well. The famous tests of the Ki-84 which yielded a 429 mph top speed involve such a plane.

It's hardly fair to compare a stripped down and sooped up Japanese test plane to a stock F4U-1a.

And besides, "mock" dogfights do not reveal things like differences in gun characteristics. The F4U could score easily from many firing positions which would be pure luck for the N1K2. And finally, "mock dogfights" almost always become turn fights, something that was not really done by smart pilots in WWII.

I'd point out that my Dad, who flew both the F4U-4B and the AD-2 thru AD-4 Skyraider, said that the Skyraider typically won "mock dogfights", but in a real fight it would have had no chance.

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[the lancaster kicks ass]

a double name post??

 

[Anonymous]

a double name post??

oops, i'll fix it!

 

[Anonymous]

Not from an American Ace's mouth.... As a side note, all the pilots under this testing/evaluation projest were qualified Aces with many hours of combat....

But then again, everyone has their own opinion on everything....

The big thing about the Japanese pilots fear of the Corsair was that it was very easy to dogfight, and was quite good, which made pilot quality not as important in some other fighters they faced.. An average, green American pilot could fight the Corsair VERY effectivly..... The average, green Japanese pilot in a Zero was at a very distinct disadvantage.....

And usually paid the price with his life.....

Mock dogfights are relatively meaningless. They almost always degenerate into a turn fight. The fact that the opposing plane would have been dead before it got to that point is usually overlooked and it comes down to which plane can stick on the other's tail after a long series of passes. This is not what actual dogfighting was about from 1943 on, the US pilots avoided such fights.

The main advantages for American pilots were plane speed and the guns. It was just much easier to be effective with 6 x .50 calibers and 400 rounds per gun than it was with 4 x 20mm (or less) with 150 rounds per gun. The Ballistics, fire time, and volume of fire all made it much easier to score hits, and he who scores first usually wins!

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[lesofprimus]

Mock dogfights are relatively meaningless. They almost always degenerate into a turn fight.

Not so with the testing that these men did.. The went through many different attack approaches and vectors, as well as different altitudes and combat styles.... I was told this by someone who did it.....

I do not assume that this man had anything to prove by saying the Shiden N1K2 was a better dogfighter than the F4U-4D, especially since he shot down 11 aircraft in his time flying a Hog....

 

[Lightning Guy]

The American pilot testing the N1K2 postwar was almost certainly better than the average Japanese pilot at the end of the war. Quality control in among Japanese industry should also be considered. As was mention, quality of construction, maintainence, even fuel, were all dramatically slipping in late-war Japan. In real-world conditions, the F4U certainly enjoyed these adavantages along with many other intangibles.

 

[GermansRGeniuses]

You do understand, however, that the Shiden was an "aces-only" machine, and was thus saved from rookies and Kamikaze work, right?


Sorta like the Jv44 of Japanese aircraft...

 

[Lightning Guy]

That was because of the relatively low numbers produced. If Japan had been able to produce more of them there would have been a number of poorly trained pilots in them.

 

[lesofprimus]

Actually the Shiden was used as a Kamakazie at the end of the war....

And u bring up all very valid points LG.....

 

[GermansRGeniuses]

No, actually, it wasn't.


The Japanese, seeing its potential, and knowing not to waste such a fine aircraft, saved it from that duty.


Actually, I'm not sure about the N1K1, but I do know the N1K2 was saved...

 

[lesofprimus]

Sorry i should have been more specific.. I was referring to the Shiden in general... The Shiden-Kai was reserved as u stated...

 

[Anonymous]

You do understand, however, that the Shiden was an "aces-only" machine, and was thus saved from rookies and Kamikaze work, right?

Sorta like the Jv44 of Japanese aircraft...

Actually, if you read Sabaru Sakai's statements on this subject, that is not true. Within the Japanese system, status was more significant than skill. Pilots with status got promoted over those with skill, and these pilots also got the best planes. And furthermore, "aces" didn't get a bye on Kamakazi missions.

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[Anonymous]

Mock dogfights are relatively meaningless. They almost always degenerate into a turn fight.

Not so with the testing that these men did.. The went through many different attack approaches and vectors, as well as different altitudes and combat styles.... I was told this by someone who did it.....

I do not assume that this man had anything to prove by saying the Shiden N1K2 was a better dogfighter than the F4U-4D, especially since he shot down 11 aircraft in his time flying a Hog....

Well, I've read over some of the Middletown Air Depot test reports, and I sure didn't see anything like that comment about the George. The plane that stood out was the (heavily rebuilt) Ki-84 Frank. Are you sure you are not confusing the two?

I assume you mean "F4U-1D" ??? (there was no -4D, and the -4 totally outclasses the N1K2 or any other Japanese fighter).

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[Anonymous]

Just to be clear, there were 971 production model N1K1 Shiden's and 415 N1K2 Shiden Kai's produced during WWII. Quite a few of the N1K2's were produced in 1945 and many of them were never delivered to combat units. Furthermore, many of the N1K2's were modified to carry 4 x 550 lbs bombs and were protected in caves awaiting the US invasion of Japan.

The point is very few N1K2's actually saw combat in WWII, probably 200 or so at best.

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[Lightning Guy]

Which would be a relatively small number of the total number of Japanese fighters allowing the Japanese to put only there very best pilots in the planes. That tends to skew any actual combat results in the Shiden's favor. Also, there probably was not enough combat to make any truly accurate conclusions on its effectiveness as a fighters.

 

[Anonymous]

Which would be a relatively small number of the total number of Japanese fighters allowing the Japanese to put only there very best pilots in the planes. That tends to skew any actual combat results in the Shiden's favor. Also, there probably was not enough combat to make any truly accurate conclusions on its effectiveness as a fighters.

Again, I have to point out that the IJN didn't operate that way. Status was more important than skill. A Japanese pilot from a "good family" even if less skilled would get promoted over one from a not so "good family", and would get better planes too.

Besides, where are you finding any results that favor the Shiden? As far as I know they may have done a little better than the Zero but they still got trounced by US pilots.

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